evo8 vs st205 vs sti

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Postby busdriver » Sat Sep 25, 2004 6:18 am

I think there is a definite technology difference between the evo and the 205 at least, the evo has a pretty nifty traction setup (the vid goes over it) and runs higher boost than the 205 if I remember correctly, the sti has half a liter more for engine, and runs more boost also. The 205 was made more so the everyday driver could get in and put in a pretty damn good lap time with minimal experience. An all around good car, just not taken as far by the factory as the STI and the Evo 8. My take on it.
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Postby furpo » Sat Sep 25, 2004 7:01 am

ok st 205 specs http://www.rallycars.com/Cars/Toyota_GT ... ST205.html

the evo 8 us specs
http://www.fastlane.com.au/News_Mitsubi ... _specs.htm

the evo 8 uk specs, this dosn't say much other than 330hp
http://www.fast-autos.net/mitsubishi/mi ... fq330.html

the sti us spec
http://www.cars101.com/subaru/impreza/sti2004.html or http://www.j-garage.com/4100.htm

i just think that 300+ hp for the evo8 and top of the line sti is a bit much for a similar weight car that has not had 10 years of refinement to keep up with. there is a reason why the st205 is no longer competitive in production car rallying. it is because cars like the evo and sti have out developed it.

this is not to say that the st205 is not a good car. in it's day it did win. as for bang for your buck i beleave all three model celicas take alot of beating.

as for mods. with the price difference between the st205 and the new evo or sti there is alot of money to through at the st205 to get it to the same price range so a bit of everything could be in order.
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Postby burden » Sat Sep 25, 2004 8:04 pm

the evo is a bit out of the league because it's compensating for less horsepower (depending on which model evo u're talking about) with prowess in the suspension and drivetrain department. so let's take the sti and the st205. that i know of, there isn't anything super technical about the sti's suspension setup and drivetrain. it's full-time awd, no computers, no nothing controlling the grip, right? so say we take the st205 to 300 hp simply by boosting more, probly to 19 or 20 psi (10hp per psi)...and shit, say we upgrade the brakes to brembo or whatnot to put it up to par with the sti's....those things alone, can the st205 hang with the subaru?
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Postby furpo » Sun Sep 26, 2004 1:27 am

i completly agree. do some small mods to the st205 ang it will be on par with the evo or sti. the same would apply to older evos and sti's. my point is people modify there cars if they care about how quick it is so the only way it matters how fast a standard car is is in production car racing.

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Postby illGT4 » Sun Sep 26, 2004 2:16 am

furpo wrote:there is a reason why the st205 is no longer competitive in production car rallying. it is because cars like the evo and sti have out developed it.


The reason for the ST205 not being competive in rally is because of disqualification. After that TTE move onto the Corolla.

It wasn't because the EVO and STi out developed it. :) Toyota's exit in rally was to focus on Formula Atlantic post '98.
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Postby OlyST185 » Sun Sep 26, 2004 4:12 am

Toyota's exit in rally was to focus on Formula Atlantic post '98.

miamm the 4AGE small port developping 240hp at what? 13 000rpm? lol
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Postby illGT4 » Sun Sep 26, 2004 5:49 am

OlyST185 wrote:
Toyota's exit in rally was to focus on Formula Atlantic post '98.

miamm the 4AGE small port developping 240hp at what? 13 000rpm? lol
open air quad throttle body, enjoy the sound.


Yeah that would be sweet.. Now where did I park my mr2..

I was told that at 240hp levels... the engine will normally expire after 8 hours. :shock:
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Postby alltracman78 » Sun Sep 26, 2004 11:33 am

illGT4 wrote:I was told that at 240hp levels... the engine will normally expire after 8 hours. :shock:


Prolly depends on what it's made out of, as in p-rings,bearings, ect.
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SORRY FOR OT!

Postby illGT4 » Sun Sep 26, 2004 5:45 pm

it was "FA" spec.
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Postby Guest » Wed Oct 13, 2004 7:52 pm

illGT4 wrote:
furpo wrote:there is a reason why the st205 is no longer competitive in production car rallying. it is because cars like the evo and sti have out developed it.


The reason for the ST205 not being competive in rally is because of disqualification. After that TTE move onto the Corolla.

It wasn't because the EVO and STi out developed it. :) Toyota's exit in rally was to focus on Formula Atlantic post '98.


so you are saying the evo 8 and new wrx have not yet caught up with the technology toyota was using with the st205? the celica still is the most successful rally car in terms of rallys won so they are a very good car. better than all other cars of its day. i find it hard to beleive that the st 205 will still be competitive in present day group N (production car) championships however.

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Postby muneo » Wed Oct 13, 2004 8:43 pm

Actually We need to clarify exactly what they did to get disqualified.
I read that it was some type of restricter plate hidden in the afm. BUT after this, I hear different stories. One say that the restricter plate actually opened up like a throttle plate which was illegal. Another story I heard was that it was ok to have it in there but was in a funny position inside the afm that allowed more air to flow thru wich disqualified them. One seems intentional and the other seems like it was a way to disqualify Toyota because they were winning so much (Basically Playahatin').
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Postby ChrisD » Wed Oct 13, 2004 8:59 pm

There was a hidden plate on the TURBO, not the AFM. Here's some info.

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The cause of complaint was that Toyota had fitted turbo restrictor's which were modified in three ways:

The restrictor was not sealed so it was possible to move it without touching the seals.
It was possible for air to enter the engine without passing through the restrictor.
The position of the restrictor could be moved so it was further away from the turbine than the 50 mm limit permitted.

It was discovered that these irregularities were made possible by a flange which had a special hidden bypass device which was held open against a very strong spring. The hose which connected the restrictor to the turbo had a metal casing inside, and attached to this casing were catches which could secretly force open the by-pass flange to the extent of 5 mm.

Max Mosley explained: "When the system was dismantled, the flange would automatically close itself and remove evidence that extra air could have entered engine. This system not only allowed extra air which did not pass through the restrictor to enter the engine, but also the restrictor itself could illegally be moved further from the turbo.

"The hose was fixed to the restrictor by a jubilee clip. A special tool was then applied to open the device and then the device then gripped in the open position by a second clip. Both of these clips had to be undone for a scrutineer to check the restrictor and in the process of opening those clips the device snapped shut.

"Inside it was beautifully made. The springs inside the hose had been polished and machined so not to impede the air which passed through. To force the springs open without the special tool would require substantial force. It is the most sophisticated and ingenious device either I or the FIA's technical experts have seen for a long-time. It was so well made that there was no gap apparent to suggest there was any means of opening it."

The FIA estimates that 25 per cent more air was allowed into the engine than permitted although admits it's difficult to estimate how much more power that would achieve. An expert put it as high as an extra 50 bhp - a considerable advantage when the cars are supposedly limited to 300 BHP.

TTE did not claim the device was legal but was represented by lawyers who entered a plea in mitigation. Mosley went on to say that the points Toyota and their drivers, Juha Kankkunen, Didier Auriol and Armin Schwarz had gained in 1995 would simply be taken away but others would not move up to fill the gaps.

The team would also be banned from contesting the 1995 Network Q RAC Rally and the 1996 World Rally Championship. He also stated that the FIA would not allow the team to get around the restrictions by entering under another guise and went on to say that there was however, nothing to suggest that the drivers were aware of anything going on.

According to Toyota the device had been devised at a "certain level" and the management knew nothing about it. The FIA dismissed this claim, saying that as a team they were responsible for all their actions.

He went on to say that there were indications that this type of thing was not happening with in other teams and praised those who were concerned with discovering the irregularity. TTE has announced that it is planning to appeal against the ban extending through 1996.

The absence of the team would weaken an already frail championship and leave it to a fight between Subaru, Mitsubishi and Ford with Subaru being the obvious favourites.
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Postby illGT4 » Wed Oct 13, 2004 11:26 pm

Anonymous wrote:
so you are saying the evo 8 and new wrx have not yet caught up with the technology toyota was using with the st205?

roger




No Roger I'm not saying that. That has nothing to do with what I said. I'm talking about the year Toyota pulled out and not when the EVO VIII and New WRX were introduced.. apples to apples here..I'm not comparing a 10 year old 205 with a 3 year old VIII or STi... That seems a bit stupid.
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Postby furpo » Wed Oct 13, 2004 11:45 pm

yes i know. that is what i am saying as well. this topic is not comparing the older evo or wrx to the st205 though. it is comparing the st205 to the evo 8 and also the new wrx.

so now we agree?

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Postby illGT4 » Thu Oct 14, 2004 4:27 am

furpo wrote:yes i know. that is what i am saying as well. this topic is not comparing the older evo or wrx to the st205 though. it is comparing the st205 to the evo 8 and also the new wrx.

so now we agree?

roger


Yes and No?

What exactly are we comparing here? :)

I believe the ST205 can hang with today's AWD turbo cars. (along with a ST185 too... not stock for stock, but running similar boost pressure, etc..)
In other words, IMHO, the EVOs active diff or the WRX whatever, aren't leaps and bounds over what Toyota used. The GT-Four was always an "easy car" to drive.

I don't believe the STi and EVO VIII havn't caught up to Toyota's 10 year old technology.

Again, all I stated was that: "It wasn't because the EVO and STi out developed it. Toyota's exit in rally was to focus on Formula Atlantic post '98."
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