MR2 better drag car than Alltrac?

Road race, Auto X, or the Drag Strip

Postby vip09 » Thu Jul 13, 2006 6:21 am

I think Griffin explained it nicely at newcelica.org. He posts as Boosted2.0 there.

Boosted2.0 wrote:I like how you guys think its easy to get 500 HP out of the 3S - yeah, sure its easy, all you need is a fully built motor, ported head, oversize valves, huge ass turbo, huge injectors, ems, fuel system, 3" exhaust all the way back, custom intake, oversize TB, cams, gears, race gas, etc.

You do the same to a 2ZZ and it will make just as much power if not more - the head is way better. The only reason it seems like such a big hurdle is because no-one has done all of it yet. But think about it - take Littlerockets new bottom end hes cooking up, slap some head studs on it, a nice head with a bit of port work on the exhaust side of things, a NICE well designed turbo manifold with an external WG and a T76 and a 75 shot to get you spooled, and you're home free. For more useable power do what Smaay has done and get a GT35R.

Its doable, but hasn't been done yet. The growing pains are still being felt. The 3S's main advantage is 20 years of R&D (yes its that old - debuted in the 86 Alltrac). IMO the 2ZZ has more potentialdue to inherent advantages in terms of redline, head design, and cam design.
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Postby Conan » Thu Jul 13, 2006 7:02 am

GT4times2 wrote:That one is making something like 404whp. Im very impressed.

How much of that power can you use in a FWD car...?
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Postby theUNYTEDone » Thu Jul 13, 2006 7:53 am

Conan wrote:
GT4times2 wrote:That one is making something like 404whp. Im very impressed.

How much of that power can you use in a FWD car...?


that WAS in a FWD car, wasn't it?
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Postby TheAutoholic » Thu Jul 13, 2006 5:21 pm

Well I don't see why this arguement is really taking place. Yes the 2ZZ should have more potential, it has 20 more years of engineering put into its design. If they ground up engineered a 3S replacement today, I am sure it would be crazy. But no, the 3S was designed before 1986, without a lot of the engineering knowledge that Toyota has today.
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Postby alltrac101 » Thu Jul 13, 2006 6:37 pm

This is an Alltrac board, Of Course the Alltrac is Better...Lol

put my engine in an mr2 & he'll have a 1 in 5 chance of goin straight with a clean pass, the other chances will be broken cv's (w/slicks) & (w/ dot tires) a wagging ass.

shawn, cloak-n-dagger is sciencing up some new madness

on a side note, todays newer engine has more technology in them primarily out-put to weight efficience, hence a lot of them are made out of aluminum with an open deck....yes, like for like mods below 350 hp the newer engines will shine, but when they are pushed to the upper limit I'll take a cast iron block before an open deck alloy all day long.....now if it is a closed deck w/ interlocking sleeves, girdle, 12mm studs, & weighed 150 lbs, this is a different story
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Postby RedCelicaTRD » Thu Jul 13, 2006 6:56 pm

alltrac101 wrote:when they are pushed to the upper limit I'll take a cast iron block before an open deck alloy all day long.....



x2.


On a side note, did you ever get the rear toe problem fixed Pat?
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Postby jlspec » Thu Jul 13, 2006 7:11 pm

Do remember that the beams 3SGE (it has VVTL-I too :D ) has a lot more power and turq then the 2ZZ. Pop in a turbo and all that jazz mention earlier and the 3SGE has way more potential. I read somewhere (can't remember which mag) that the 7 gen celicas swap their motors for 3SGTE all the time (mostly in Japan I think). Anyway, 3SGTE has been known to produce over 800 horsepower.
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Postby lumbercis » Thu Jul 13, 2006 11:13 pm

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/timeslips.php

Take a look at this DSM quarter mile database. Not only some stupidly fast times, but some ridiculous 60ft's, some as low as 1.3's. I think this is more in line with what alltracs should be capable of. Very similar platforms when you think about it. AWD, similar weight, 4cyl turbo engines, etc. People say "but DSMs have a larger aftermarket" but that only means that it's cheaper to mod. All the parts that you could ever want to replace are available for the 3sgte. I fully realize that alltracs (or MR2s for that matter) will probably never hit as many low numbers as DSMs, but I think that has nothing to do with the capability of the platform and everything to do with the size of the community (more people throwing money at DSMs than alltracs and mr2s put together). A look at the mod lists for the 10 and 11sec DSMs will show how much cash gets thrown at them to acheive the times they do. And they have to invest in crankshafts and things that we don't (usually) have to worry about.

All this is just to point out that I think the alltrac has alot of advantages and has the potential to be as fast as any MR2 or DSM. But because our community is small, the times in our database don't really reflect that potential much.

@alltrac101: Hey Pat, you are our leader here man, so whats up with having the second worst 60ft in the database! :evil: j/k
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Postby TheAutoholic » Fri Jul 14, 2006 6:24 am

lumbercis wrote:http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/timeslips.php

Take a look at this DSM quarter mile database. Not only some stupidly fast times, but some ridiculous 60ft's, some as low as 1.3's. I think this is more in line with what alltracs should be capable of. Very similar platforms when you think about it. AWD, similar weight, 4cyl turbo engines, etc. People say "but DSMs have a larger aftermarket" but that only means that it's cheaper to mod. All the parts that you could ever want to replace are available for the 3sgte. I fully realize that alltracs (or MR2s for that matter) will probably never hit as many low numbers as DSMs, but I think that has nothing to do with the capability of the platform and everything to do with the size of the community (more people throwing money at DSMs than alltracs and mr2s put together). A look at the mod lists for the 10 and 11sec DSMs will show how much cash gets thrown at them to acheive the times they do. And they have to invest in crankshafts and things that we don't (usually) have to worry about.

All this is just to point out that I think the alltrac has alot of advantages and has the potential to be as fast as any MR2 or DSM. But because our community is small, the times in our database don't really reflect that potential much.

@alltrac101: Hey Pat, you are our leader here man, so whats up with having the second worst 60ft in the database! :evil: j/k


*cough* crank walk *cough*
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Postby vip09 » Fri Jul 14, 2006 7:03 am

jlspec wrote:Do remember that the beams 3SGE (it has VVTL-I too :D ) has a lot more power and turq then the 2ZZ. Pop in a turbo and all that jazz mention earlier and the 3SGE has way more potential. I read somewhere (can't remember which mag) that the 7 gen celicas swap their motors for 3SGTE all the time (mostly in Japan I think). Anyway, 3SGTE has been known to produce over 800 horsepower.


The beams 3S-GE does NOT have VVTL-i. It has VVT-i. The 2ZZ-GE is the only engine with VVTL-i.
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Postby SuperWhite92 » Fri Jul 14, 2006 2:21 pm

TheAutoholic wrote:
lumbercis wrote:http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/timeslips.php

Take a look at this DSM quarter mile database. Not only some stupidly fast times, but some ridiculous 60ft's, some as low as 1.3's. I think this is more in line with what alltracs should be capable of. Very similar platforms when you think about it. AWD, similar weight, 4cyl turbo engines, etc. People say "but DSMs have a larger aftermarket" but that only means that it's cheaper to mod. All the parts that you could ever want to replace are available for the 3sgte. I fully realize that alltracs (or MR2s for that matter) will probably never hit as many low numbers as DSMs, but I think that has nothing to do with the capability of the platform and everything to do with the size of the community (more people throwing money at DSMs than alltracs and mr2s put together). A look at the mod lists for the 10 and 11sec DSMs will show how much cash gets thrown at them to acheive the times they do. And they have to invest in crankshafts and things that we don't (usually) have to worry about.

All this is just to point out that I think the alltrac has alot of advantages and has the potential to be as fast as any MR2 or DSM. But because our community is small, the times in our database don't really reflect that potential much.

@alltrac101: Hey Pat, you are our leader here man, so whats up with having the second worst 60ft in the database! :evil: j/k


*cough* crank walk *cough*


You know that only a very very few 2nd generation DSM's have ever crankwalked when compared to how many are sold?
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Postby jlspec » Fri Jul 14, 2006 5:19 pm

That's right, the Beams 3S-GE only has VVT-I :doh: . Still, it has more power.[/quote]
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Postby 1BADGT4 » Fri Jul 14, 2006 9:21 pm

On the streets, the gt4s have the advantage over the deuce. On the track, the gt4 loses the advantage.

The only the gt4 is will be competative on drags, is if it drops the ~500# differnce, or run a big ass turbo that is even bigger than the deuces (to make up the weight).

PS - I still don't see how the drivetrain can weight that additional ~500#s!? Maybe more like 300#s?
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Postby White Rabbit » Fri Jul 14, 2006 10:50 pm

well if we wanna talk about the dsm's there are a few ways to look at em. now im not gonna knock them cuz there are some nice ones out there but they are pretty much the honda civics of the 4-wheel drive turbo world. not to mention mitsu puts the 4g63 in everything. i mean if the 3sgte was still in an mr2 or celica up till now the aftermarket would be much larger. the biggest mistake toyota made was not importing the gt4 in its finest form. they could at least give us the caldina, which is a 3sgte with vvt-i
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Postby Mafix » Fri Jul 14, 2006 11:50 pm

SuperWhite92 wrote:You know that only a very very few 2nd generation DSM's have ever crankwalked when compared to how many are sold?

you might want to check your references...all 2nd gen turbo 4g63s have crank walk (minus the 99 model). and yes ALL of them.
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