mk3 supras and alltracs

Road race, Auto X, or the Drag Strip

Postby Simba » Thu Feb 22, 2007 8:01 pm

lumbercis wrote:The Supra has more power, but the MkIII's are even heavier pigs than the AT.


All Supras are heavy. However, they don't have a ~25-30% driveline loss through an AWD system, so the weight difference becomes pretty meaningless.

So far as practical races go, as I said, most mkiii's are owned by young kids who know jack, run 12+ pounds of boost on 87 octane gas, and then cry about how their head gasket blew. Well tuned mkiii's are very hard to come by, so if you run one on the road, chances whatever you come across isn't going to be as fast as it should be.

However, there are a few of them rolling around still that will surprise the hell out of just about anything.
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Postby jlspec » Sat Mar 10, 2007 11:11 pm

I believe stock MK3 supras are somewhere of 3700 lbs (meaning top of the line with progresive steering). Back in the days when it was release magazine article tested it with times of 14.9-15.1 quarter mile (1989 models). This meaning the lower model supra turbos with no abs, targa top etc would be slightly faster then 14.9-15.1 quarter mile times. 7MGTE power band is much better then our 3sgte from stock and modifiy engines.

Our alltrac stock run 15.3 (1990-1993) and 15.5 (1988-1989) quarter mile meaning were going to lose. The 7mgte also responds to mods much better then our engines.
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Postby SupraOfDoom » Mon Sep 17, 2007 7:01 am

Since I'm a fan of both, I'm going to tell you straight up your going to have a hard time keeping up with a well driven / smartly modded MKIII.

With just exhaust ( Divorced downpipe + 3" all the way back ), then can gain nearly 100rwhp ( VERY RESTRICTIVE exhaust ). With $2500 and a very good driver I've seen 12.1 slips.

Although, most MKIII owner's don't know jack about drag racing.

I would think since you guys are AWD and make decent power you could keep up, but generally you wouldn't be making the amount of power they do.
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Postby Simba » Mon Sep 17, 2007 6:28 pm

SupraOfDoom wrote:With just exhaust ( Divorced downpipe + 3" all the way back ), then can gain nearly 100rwhp ( VERY RESTRICTIVE exhaust ).


Uh, bullshit. They pick up around ~30 at the crank running 8-9 psi with "just" a 3" turbine back exhaust.

You're not going to pick up 130+ horse without a lot of boost, which neither the stock ct26 nor the stock intercooler like much, and a pile of other mods.

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Postby SupraOfDoom » Tue Sep 18, 2007 12:02 am

Simba wrote:
SupraOfDoom wrote:With just exhaust ( Divorced downpipe + 3" all the way back ), then can gain nearly 100rwhp ( VERY RESTRICTIVE exhaust ).


Uh, bullshit. They pick up around ~30 at the crank running 8-9 psi with "just" a 3" turbine back exhaust.

You're not going to pick up 130+ horse without a lot of boost, which neither the stock ct26 nor the stock intercooler like much, and a pile of other mods.


You willing to bet money on it? :)

There is a DP for the MKIII on the stock turbo that gains 29 whp over a regular 3" dp ALONE for the MKIII. You might have a TT MKIV but that doesn't mean you know MKIII's....

I can show you RESULTS. It was tested awhile ago buy the guy who made the DP ( and he's very reputable. ). He made :
"Results with the stock CT26 Turbo
300 whp, 352 tq at 15 psi."
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Postby Simba » Tue Sep 18, 2007 12:06 am

SupraOfDoom wrote:You willing to bet money on it? :)


Show me a dyno plot where someone made ~280 wheel horsepower on a stock 7m with an exhaust at 8-9 psi of boost, and I'll show you someone who likes using photoshop.

I've built several MkIIIs. It doesn't happen.

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Postby SupraOfDoom » Tue Sep 18, 2007 12:10 am

http://www.bicperformance.com/dyno.htm

Then go to Products and read about the Divorced downpipe ( non spgt61 ).

I will ask him to send me all the info and if he still has his dyno's of it... since SF doesn't allow you to search !!!
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Postby Simba » Tue Sep 18, 2007 1:18 am

You're not getting 15 psi with "just an exhaust", so, again: Nope.

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Postby SupraOfDoom » Tue Sep 18, 2007 1:27 am

Say what you like I've seen it on a stock MKIII w/ dyno sheets. You wouldn't be at 15 psi but you could get 13 psi as it says. I wish SF had search, just RETARDED for a car forum not to have search. That and maybe a MBC was used, who knows I need to find the thread myself.

But anyway, I will do my best to find you the correct results and info...

ANYWAY, they make hella power for little money.. and can run as low as 12.1's on full weight cars w/ upgraded ct's... and make over 500rwhp.
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Postby Simba » Tue Sep 18, 2007 4:27 am

SupraOfDoom wrote:You wouldn't be at 15 psi but you could get 13 psi as it says.


No, you won't. You'll get ~8-9 psi on the stock turbo no matter what you do with it. Open exhaust, open downpipe, whatever. To get 15 pounds, you're using a boost controler of some sort, and if you're smart doing something with the intercooler and fuelling, else you won't be making that kind of boost for long before something goes bang.

ANYWAY, they make hella power for little money..


Yes, they do, however not with any degree of reliability. They will make a lot of power, and they will do it reliably, but it's not any cheaper than it is to build any other engine.

and can run as low as 12.1's on full weight cars w/ upgraded ct's...


Keep dreaming. ~400-450 to the wheels will get you into the very high 12s with the right tires and a good driver. You're not getting that kind of power out of a CT upgrade for more than a few runs. You're looking at at least a t04b with the requisit supporting mods, and the stock bottom end will generally not survive long at those power levels.

and make over 500rwhp.


On a fully built engine with a massive turbo, sure. Even more than that, in fact.

It's obvious you like the car, and that's great, but you need to separate the hype from reality and realize what the car can and can not do. Stock, the suspension and brakes are garbage, and the 7M will not handle sustained power levels over 500 flywheel horsepower for long on the stock internals without tossing its cookies.

Take my word for it, I built three of them back in the day. And by "back in the day" I'm referring to the mid to late 90's, back when Reg Reimer was coming up with this crazy idea you may have heard of involving a Lexus V8 AFM and 550cc injectors.

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Postby SupraOfDoom » Tue Sep 18, 2007 10:41 am

The stock bottom end can handle around 500rwhp pretty well... anything more then that however yes you need to build the motor. But there are a SHIT TON of owners on stock internals around 500rwhp. Looks like you should have visted 7mpower.com! ( http://www.7mpower.com/members.shtml )

When did I ever mention reliability when I said 500rwhp on upgraded CT-26's? For a dyno you only run high boost a few times, did I ever say differently? The 60-1 CT is known for blowing with only a few thousand miles on it, but generally thats why most people stopped upgrading to 60-1, now only do 57-1. However, the guy who ran a 12.1 on a full weight MKIII with an upgraded CT did hundreds of passes at Great Lakes Drag away with out any problems, his name was MKIIISupraGuy on the forums... ask any old school MKIIIer who he is and they will tell you he had the best quarter on the CT. STOCK BOTTOM END AND ALL. Infact Tony from CA made 700rwhp on the stock bottom end at VEGAS 2 years ago just fine.... and a couple others did 600rwhp on the stock bottom end.
Now obviously, this isn't going to be the most reliable thing, but I never claimed it would be, but the motor can handle that kinda power... and 500rwhp can be handled relatively reliable with the right turbo and TUNING!!!!

*EDIT, here is his ACTUAL time "16. 12.061@115.59X MKIIISupraGuy "
and a little more info:
Check the link in this thread and read the comments for more reassurance
92t wrote:I ran a 12.4@116 see slip here

http://www.supraforums.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=215825&highlight=12.4

This is also the record on stock (upgraded) ct26 turbo! Street tires too. ;)


joliroger4 wrote:Maybe thats the street tire record if you discount DRs but Leng went 12.06 on an upgraded ct26 and 255 BFGs

Leng is MKIIISupraGuy

Infact here's a quote for you:
MKIIISupraGuy wrote:Hey man that is just FRIGGING AWSOME man!!!

Much props to you and your car. What a monster! I bet if you ran my 255/50/16 BFG Drag Radials and cut a 1.800 60ft like I did, you'd be in the 11's!!!

Man... that 116mph trap is unbelievable. Awsome job man. Screw that haters ;). They don't know wtf they're talking about. Let them go run mid 12's and 116mph traps with an upgraded ct-26 hehe... :D




and for a BONUS:
Image
"My 12.61 run
stock ct, stock intercooler, full weight, auto, 550's, vpc, safc-2, blitz nur, titan DP, 20 psi"
"Fresh motor, fresh ct, VPC with SAFC-2, 550's, walbro, Titan DP, Blitz NU-R, AFPR kit, 2mm hks headgasket, 3000 stall converter, built a340, 20psi MBC, 2 hrs of dyno tunning 359hp"

and another:
"New time for the stock ct from tx2k7 11.95@114 with a 75 shot"
http://www.supraforums.com/forum/showth ... p?t=217208

Stock suspension is pretty garbage? But what does that have to do with drag racing? A soft suspension is great for launching which is why the MKIII makes a pretty good drag car on the shitty body-roll prone suspension. Yes the brakes are very undersized especially for the weight of the car, but just read any of the old test comparisons with MKIII, it out stops almost every car in its class besides the FC / and Vette GENERALLY.

You may have built 3 back in the day, but there are loads more tricks and information out NOW. You can say what you want I've probably seen 10x more results and info then you in the present... and if you were constantly in the MKIII community you'd probably be pretty surprised and change at least some of your idea's.

So, LOL @
Simba wrote:
Keep dreaming. ~400-450 to the wheels will get you into the very high 12s with the right tires and a good driver. You're not getting that kind of power out of a CT upgrade for more than a few runs. You're looking at at least a t04b with the requisit supporting mods, and the stock bottom end will generally not survive long at those power levels.
It's pretty obvious you don't know sh1t about drag racing if thats what you believe.

Here is the actual reason why GENERALLY MKIII owners can't drag:

Originally Posted by RANT
I’m going to address a very serious problem in the Supra community; the quarter mile. Whenever supra owners go to the track, they suddenly become half retarded monkeys that can no longer figure out how to drive. I maintain that Supra owners are the worst drivers of all automotive enthusiasts. And what happens when a Supra owner does shitty at the track? They blame everything but themselves. I’ve got news for you jackass Vettes, Cobras, RX7s, 300ZXs, none of them seem to have issues launching their independent rear suspensioned car. Hell, damn front wheel drive Hondas launch better than most supra owners, and they bitch about it less! An IRS is not an excuse. Many domestics have hundreds of pounds on our cars, yet they run faster with less horsepower. Weight is not an excuse. Its your own damn fault for thinking you could hook by just dumping the clutch on a dropped car (with lots of negative camber) rolling on small side walled 18s with street tires that you did a burn out on.

You don’t need 600 horsepower to run 11s. An other car in the world would be DEEP in the 10s with that much power. Hell, it should only take you mid 300s to run twelves. The next time someone posted about how they ran a 14@110 mph, I was going to drive to their house and punch them in the neck. So I had to make this thread. I’m sorry, but it’s fucking embarrassing when at the national meets our cars are running 13s and 14s. If you wonder why our cars get no respect, it’s because you monkeys make sure no one is afraid to race us. My stinking bolt on Integra GSR would eat most of the BPU MK3s on this board alive at the track. That’s just sad as hell because that car is slow as shit.

If I offended you, good. Maybe it will motivate you to prep your car. Take this criticism and use it to fuel your rage. Turn that rage into making your car perform. The dark side isn’t that bad.


That and MKIV owner's generally have the same mindset. Why do you think the joke " Whats the difference between a 400rwhp MKIV and 800rwhp MKIV? Nothing they both run 12's"? There is a common reason for it, because Supra owners are generally RETARDED.

Here is the actual thread with the rant in it, which is GREAT info, especially for Turbo cars, and RWD more specifically.:
http://www.supramania.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14479
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Postby MrWOT » Tue Sep 18, 2007 3:45 pm

Actually the 7M platform has excellent potential but has great weaknessess that need to be addressed in the block, namely stiffening the deck and equalizing cooling between the cylinders, which requires considerable effort. In stock form it will take about 500whp reliably, after that the heat and pressure will warp the deck and you will blow hgs right and left or crack things, not to mention what it does to ring seal. If you stiffen the deck by filling a bit you can make the block MUCH stronger. Then you just have to worry about cooling the beast. The 7M head is a good design for the valve angles, can be made to flow huge ammounts at high velocity. Enough for 1000whp with work.
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Postby lumbercis » Tue Sep 18, 2007 5:48 pm

Well, darn, I went and looked up the common drag times for mkiii's and SoD goes and posts them all up before me!

To bring this back around to comparisons with alltracs, I focused on stock turbo times, because once you get into heavy modding, comparisons are pretty much a waste of time.

Although one or two mkIII's have run 12.5-12.6 times with the stock turbo, I saw alot of 13.2-13.4 times.

I really don't know how to compare that to an alltrac since nobody really drags alltracs, so there is not a good database of times to compare with. The Gt-Four database is a little hard to decipher, but the best time I saw in there which was likely to be on a stock ct-26 was a 13.6. But that was in '04.

In the mr2 chassis, the fastest stock ct-26 time in the mr2oc database was a 12.6. In an alltrac that would obviously be slower because of weight and drivetrain loss. But how much slower????? Probably not a full second slower. I think that just speaks to the fact that no one is really pushing it with alltracs.

The upshot to all this is basically what I was saying before. At bone stock to lightly modded power levels, the MKIII only has a few tenths advantage over the alltrac. If you try to race one from a 60mph roll, you will in all likelihood, lose. If you race one on the street from a dig, you probably have an even chance of taking it.

Highly modded power levels just depend on how much money you have. The fastest 7M powered car I could find on supraforums was 10.28. Im not sure what Pat's latest time was, but I think it was around mid-10's. Again repeating the story of the alltrac being a few tenths behind the mkIII.

If we want to be really unscientific, everyone needs to just go out and race every mkIII they can find in their area and post up the results! May end up being embarrassing though. My alltrac is slow as balls. Damn boost leaks!

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Postby Simba » Tue Sep 18, 2007 8:06 pm

Sigh. I dunno why I bother sometimes.

Yes, clearly because one or two people have managed to pull out more-than-average power on stock components, that means every car can do that all day long without a single issue. :roll:

Enjoy your BHG.

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Postby SupraOfDoom » Tue Sep 18, 2007 11:40 pm

Simba wrote:Sigh. I dunno why I bother sometimes.

Yes, clearly because one or two people have managed to pull out more-than-average power on stock components, that means every car can do that all day long without a single issue. :roll:

Enjoy your BHG.


Obviously I've done plenty of research on the matter, so don't give me that bs.

The reason only a few have done it is because everyone has your I can't do it mind set.... or just straight up don't know JACK about racing. Which I already went over, please don't make me sound like a broken record.

Say what you want, it was done, and it can be done again.... with out head gasket problems. The main people blowing HG's is people who torqued it down to little ( Toyota ), or people who didn't take the block to the machine shop! There are plenty of lazy noobs out there who aren't willing to do it right... PERIOD. A 7MGTE w/ a MHG and ARP's should hold around 500rwhp w/ out HG problems just fine..

And now I love how you can't really argue my point, instead you just say that is a fluke and don't give any credit... just seem stubborn to me :) And there you go again making it sound like I said every car can do it... I never said that.. I said it can be done. I know damn well that most of these up to 20 year old cars are not even close to up to par compared to when they were new. I more or less was just saying what they can do, and some to this day could still pull it off... or anyone with a bunch of fresh oem parts.

You can argue what you want but its pretty common knowledge in the MKIII community.
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