mk3 supras and alltracs

Road race, Auto X, or the Drag Strip

Postby SupraOfDoom » Tue Sep 18, 2007 11:43 pm

lumbercis wrote:Well, darn, I went and looked up the common drag times for mkiii's and SoD goes and posts them all up before me!

To bring this back around to comparisons with alltracs, I focused on stock turbo times, because once you get into heavy modding, comparisons are pretty much a waste of time.

Although one or two mkIII's have run 12.5-12.6 times with the stock turbo, I saw alot of 13.2-13.4 times.

I really don't know how to compare that to an alltrac since nobody really drags alltracs, so there is not a good database of times to compare with. The Gt-Four database is a little hard to decipher, but the best time I saw in there which was likely to be on a stock ct-26 was a 13.6. But that was in '04.

In the mr2 chassis, the fastest stock ct-26 time in the mr2oc database was a 12.6. In an alltrac that would obviously be slower because of weight and drivetrain loss. But how much slower????? Probably not a full second slower. I think that just speaks to the fact that no one is really pushing it with alltracs.

The upshot to all this is basically what I was saying before. At bone stock to lightly modded power levels, the MKIII only has a few tenths advantage over the alltrac. If you try to race one from a 60mph roll, you will in all likelihood, lose. If you race one on the street from a dig, you probably have an even chance of taking it.

Highly modded power levels just depend on how much money you have. The fastest 7M powered car I could find on supraforums was 10.28. Im not sure what Pat's latest time was, but I think it was around mid-10's. Again repeating the story of the alltrac being a few tenths behind the mkIII.

If we want to be really unscientific, everyone needs to just go out and race every mkIII they can find in their area and post up the results! May end up being embarrassing though. My alltrac is slow as balls. Damn boost leaks!

J.


There is going to be VERY few MKIII's running those times with stock CT's.... it would have to be the ideal situation ( IE perfect motor / turbo / setup / tuning / tires / driving )... but it is possible ;).
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Postby Red Rabbit » Wed Sep 19, 2007 10:45 am

not to thread jack or anything but wasnt this whole thing started by the comment of getting 100whp more out of just a 3" downpipe and exhaust system on a mkIII 7mgte supra. And fyi as for simba knowing what he is talking about he is one of the more reputable members of the forum for information on a lot of stuff regarding our cars he gave us a review of what the ct-27 was capable of when he first got it and then moved up to the street brawler with the bay area tmic and as a result maintains one of the cleanest 185's on the forum right now. As for the whole basis of this thread in the first place its kinda like comparing apples and oranges a 4wd 4 cylinder turbo against a rwd straight 6 turbo, each car was built for a different kind of performance to begin with. But besides all of that as for headgasket i think simba was referring to a stock headgasket not a mhg and arp studs. A lot of the arguing in this post to begin with started with all these power gains for like hardly any parts and each time someone spits something back another part is added into the mess. 1st it was exhaust for a 100whp more and then a boost controll then fuel shit and now we are on tearing the whole fucking motor apart. Where will it end. :doh:
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Postby hacker_720 » Wed Sep 19, 2007 3:18 pm

^^ ya, I'm with him, try and stick to your argument of "Just an exhaust" we all know the Supra's are good cars, but lets be reasonable. As you have probably noticed, this is not an “My civic is faster then yours” forum and we tend to know what we are talking about here. We do appreciate a good argument, but Simba really knows what he’s talking about. I think he has made his point.

SupraOfDoom wrote:Since I'm a fan of both, I'm going to tell you straight up your going to have a hard time keeping up with a well driven / smartly modded MKIII.

With just exhaust ( Divorced downpipe + 3" all the way back ), then can gain nearly 100rwhp ( VERY RESTRICTIVE exhaust ). With $2500 and a very good driver I've seen 12.1 slips.

Although, most MKIII owner's don't know jack about drag racing.

I would think since you guys are AWD and make decent power you could keep up, but generally you wouldn't be making the amount of power they do.
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Postby Simba » Wed Sep 19, 2007 5:02 pm

SupraOfDoom wrote:You can argue what you want but its pretty common knowledge in the MKIII community.


Kid, I was in the "supra community" since before there was a "supra community", back when the only discussion of note happened on the SOGI mailing list and the cars were still selling for ~25 grand. Before supraforums, before the dozen and five splinter faction forums, and before the average mkIII owner was a know it all brat like you.

You don't know anywhere near what you think you know, because chances are much of what you "know" is what you read on some silly web forum. It's idiots like you who pedal overinflated numbers and general nonsense about the cars that gives the car and its owners a bad name, and the very same reason I left the "supra community" before you had a drivers license.

Namely as trying to talk some sense into kids who think they're Gods gift to tuning because they have a 20 year old $1,000 car is simply a waste of time.

Regardless-- getting back to the point I originally made before this thread went sideways, mod for mod the Supra has a slight edge on the AT. However, I'll revisit that by adding: That said, most of them seem to be owned by loudmouth brats like the one exemplifed here, so, if you're running one, keep on it as it'll probably blow up before the run is over.

Lots of fast, loud things.
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Postby lumbercis » Wed Sep 19, 2007 5:48 pm

Simba,
As much as I respect your experience and knowledge, you need to watch the flaming. I think you could have expressed your ideas without it.

As for the downpipe issue, supraforum's own upgrade path for the 7MGTE estimates a 45hp gain going from the stock exhaust to a full turbo back. That includes an estimated 2psi bump in boost pressure from the more open exhaust. Thats pretty darn good for just an exhaust!

http://www.supraforums.com/forum/showth ... p?t=152334

I would think if there was a downpipe that consistently added 100whp over stock that it would be mentioned in the FAQ and used by every MKIII owner.

I agree with Simba that you have to be careful judging by outliers. Now if there were 4 or 5 MKIII's with dyno plots from different sources all showing a 100hp gain, then it might bear more weight.

J.
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Postby SupraOfDoom » Wed Sep 19, 2007 6:21 pm

Back on to the 100rwhp gain, here is my proof.

becauseican wrote:Yes, I have this one for now, but I will scan the original for a clearer view in the next day or two.

The car was a stock mk3, stock ct turbo, with a 3" exhaust system, 3" testpipe. The red run is with the standard big mouth BIC 3" dp at 10 psi. The blue run is about 20 min later with the only change being the DDP installed, at 11 psi.

Image


Hope that helps clear any doubts guys. 103rwhp from exhaust :)

Simba, you can try and be little me all you want ( thats all you got going for you in this arguement ), I could care less about when you were into the Supra game or your age.... I'm more into proven results and facts.
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Postby lumbercis » Wed Sep 19, 2007 10:04 pm

^And is this dyno plot from the manufacturer of the downpipe? Was it done on a dynojet?

Are there other dyno plots from private owners who have bought this downpipe and shown similar results?

J.
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Postby SupraOfDoom » Wed Sep 19, 2007 11:22 pm

lumbercis wrote:^And is this dyno plot from the manufacturer of the downpipe? Was it done on a dynojet?

Are there other dyno plots from private owners who have bought this downpipe and shown similar results?

J.

Yes I believe the testing was done on a customers car from the downpipe manufacture.

I made a new thread about this in his section on www.supramania.com, we can see if anyone else has dynoed similar results. I'd say not many have dynoed but I won't out rule the possibility... not many people dyno just after full 3". But I can tell you he as reputable as any good shop owner out there, and his products are QUALITY... quality most MKIII owners are too cheap to buy, better performance or not.. that and the DDP's are TOO loud for most area's with strict laws.

I understand the skepticism, I had a hard time believing it at first too, but divorced down pipes make a HUGE difference. Shit you guys should check out his stuff, maybe he'd make some for the 3s :).

PS I might be willing to DYNO results for you, after I refurbish my 7MGTE this winter.
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Postby SupraOfDoom » Fri Sep 21, 2007 5:38 pm

becauseican wrote:All the dyno runs were done back to back, within about an hour of each other. I have the burn marks on my arms from swapping the dp's while it was strapped to the dyno!!!. The dyno was a Dyno Dynamics, which usually reads a little lower than a Dynojet. It was done on Vansupra's car here on SM, he will vouch for me........you guys should know me here by now, I dont mess around !!!:bigthumb: There has been a few others that have dynoed around 275-290 whp after installing the DDP.

I will dig up the sheets and scan them, and post some more info.

All I need is an All-trac Celica for a few days in the shop and you guys can have DDP's too. Anyone near Vancouver Canada / Seattle Washington want to donate a car for a prototype???. There is very few of these in Canada, infact I dont think they were even released here.


Which forum was this on?, I would like to take a look.

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Postby lumbercis » Fri Sep 21, 2007 7:47 pm

^does he know that most downpipes can fit both the Celica and the MR2 Turbo? He'd certainly make more money if he could design it in such a way as to allow the same DDP to fit both cars. As a matter of fact, he may want to make an MR2 version first as thats where the business is.

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Postby SupraOfDoom » Sat Sep 22, 2007 12:36 am

lumbercis wrote:^does he know that most downpipes can fit both the Celica and the MR2 Turbo? He'd certainly make more money if he could design it in such a way as to allow the same DDP to fit both cars. As a matter of fact, he may want to make an MR2 version first as thats where the business is.

J.


I let him know, he sounds interested as it is, I already linked him to this thread... you guys would LOVE the gains.
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Postby CryoSlash » Sat Sep 22, 2007 5:46 am

Matt, don't bother with Simba, he is utterly a troll amongst trolls... this is the same guy who thinks that an STI tranny cannot hold power... and on that note, thinks that the supra community cannot possibly make advancements within the last 20 years. :doh: :lol:
I've seen THREE ct26 cars do 12s in the 1/4, hell one of the cars was even a 5 speed.
Simba wrote:Namely as trying to talk some sense into kids who think they're Gods gift to tuning because they have a 20 year old $1,000 car is simply a waste of time.

Hmm, sounds like a lot of enthusiast's no? can't all-trac's fall under that stereotype? And who do you think you are generalizing mk3s as most being run down, badly tuned cars? I have seen far many more strong mk3's then run down ones... and most of the ones that were run down were owned by the older generation who could care less for their car.

I personally run a Divorced Down Pipe, and would not have it any other way. The car WILL put down 300 with just the pipe and a full 3 inch exhaust. Why do i believe? Because one of our customers mark 3 made on a dying turbo, and a low compression motor, 281 rwhp and 337 ft-lbs of torque... so put that in your pipe and smoke it.

Simba, I am glad you left the supra community, because it only takes one to spoil the bunch... and you look like an old brat who thinks his shit doesn't stink.
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Postby Red Rabbit » Sat Sep 22, 2007 6:42 pm

i was looking at the pics od the ddp downpipe. i like how it seperates the wastegate from the exhaust entirely and vents straight to the atmosphere. seems like it would cause even less exhaust constriction as a result. it would be interesting to see what kind of difference the design would have on an alltrac or any other 3sgte.

since some may not know what everyone is talking about i figured i would post some pics of this thing up.


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Postby Dracov » Sat Sep 22, 2007 9:44 pm

Hence why it's called a Divorced Downpipe. ;) It essentially eliminates turbulence in the exhaust due to the difference gas velocities between the turbine's flow and the wastegate's flow. Myself I would get a rerouted DDP, as that reduces the noise (DDP's are loud, loud beasts) and still retains virtually all the power gain benefits.

Another advantage would be that BIC's downpipes are basically made-to-order. There's a number of options that can be added on to suit the buyer's specific needs: Adding a wideband O2 bung, flex section, etc. Here's the guy's products page:

http://www.bicperformance.com/products.htm
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Postby SupraOfDoom » Sat Sep 22, 2007 10:37 pm

Dracov wrote:Hence why it's called a Divorced Downpipe. ;) It essentially eliminates turbulence in the exhaust due to the difference gas velocities between the turbine's flow and the wastegate's flow. Myself I would get a rerouted DDP, as that reduces the noise (DDP's are loud, loud beasts) and still retains virtually all the power gain benefits.

Another advantage would be that BIC's downpipes are basically made-to-order. There's a number of options that can be added on to suit the buyer's specific needs: Adding a wideband O2 bung, flex section, etc. Here's the guy's products page:

http://www.bicperformance.com/products.htm


Yep, like I said he makes some great stuff.

Anyway, as I said before he might be into building alltrac/mr2 guys a DDP :)... I'm sure he'll check here soon.
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