st185 body kit research and concepts (AT club homework)

Visual Styling, Spoilers, and rims

Re: st185 body kit research and concepts (AT club homework)

Postby CMS-GT4 » Fri Jul 18, 2014 9:00 pm

So how you going to secure it? Bracket from the bottom?

For the PS I did of the Lancer spats, here is a cheap place for some reps if anyone wants to try it.
http://www.kaze-speed.com/exterior-body ... t-2pc.html

I also have my rear section on the way. I'll post pics of fitment once it gets here. Here is a quick PS of what I am expecting to pull off with the rear.
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Coldiron
92 st185 (205 swap) | 03 350Z Track (sold) | 13 Pilot | 17 Mazda3
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Re: st185 body kit research and concepts (AT club homework)

Postby soarer.jzz30 » Mon Jul 21, 2014 7:16 pm

The lip is terribly flimsy so I'm not sure a single bracket would suffice. I was debating trying 3m trim tape. Seems cheap but if done right it stays well. On the other hand... I could make a few small brackets to get it to fit right. There is a small ledge I could use some hardware and go from there. I also had an idea from this and the black car that used a stretched accord lip. Cheaper than the Evo pieces but a full wrap.
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Re: st185 body kit research and concepts (AT club homework)

Postby codytheoutlaw » Tue Jul 22, 2014 4:04 am

Does anyone know off hand if the All Trac or GTS spoiler will fit a GT with the narrow body and a lift back? I assume it will, but I didn't know if the wide body was any different on the section of the quarter panel where the sides of the spoiler mount. From what I can tell in the pictures, the wide body flares out closer to the wheel opening and the top part of the quarter looks like the narrow body.

Edit: After I posted this I found a GT Four narrow body and it has the wide body spoiler, so that answers my question.
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Re: st185 body kit research and concepts (AT club homework)

Postby CMS-GT4 » Tue Jul 22, 2014 6:45 pm

SSiii spats came in, and they will not need as much work as I thought. Even the tabs line up with a place that can be mounted after drilling holes. One two sided tape will keep them tight. The main issue is a gap near the fender that needs to be resolved. Either some plastic filler or something might be worked out. Don't mind the gas tank cover, that is for another future project.
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Re: st185 body kit research and concepts (AT club homework)

Postby CMS-GT4 » Tue Jul 22, 2014 6:46 pm

A couple more pics. I think I might make a rear piece that connects the two spats.
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Re: st185 body kit research and concepts (AT club homework)

Postby soarer.jzz30 » Tue Jul 22, 2014 7:40 pm

I usually trim with a blade then smooth it out. A little bit of paper if need be
'97 Toyota Soarer 5speed(dd), '90 ST185(money pit)
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Re: st185 body kit research and concepts (AT club homework)

Postby crymson » Tue Jul 22, 2014 8:57 pm

Has anyone ever considered the spats off a last been corolla s?
1990 Red Celica GT-S "Gracie" - sold
2001 Red Celica GT-S "Hannah"
1993 Formerly Blue Celica Alltrac "Alexandra"
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Re: st185 body kit research and concepts (AT club homework)

Postby soarer.jzz30 » Tue Jul 22, 2014 10:26 pm

I've been looking at them recently
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Re: st185 body kit research and concepts (AT club homework)

Postby alltrac101 » Sat Jul 26, 2014 7:35 pm

Josh, looks like if you sand/trim on the top part of spats (the little overhang horizontal) right at the 1/4 & bumper edge & double side tape it, it will pull in the corner at the wheel arch at the same time...
Good luck...looks great
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Re: st185 body kit research and concepts (AT club homework)

Postby DeeCee » Tue Sep 23, 2014 10:54 pm

CMS-GT4 wrote:Since my video is related I'll post here too.
This one is about body kits and the design aesthetics of the car. Get a snack and watch in full screen. Its a long video. http://youtu.be/9HxgCG08gJw

So I finally got around to watching your analysis. You could have asked for some better pics of the widebody guards as the pics showed a crap initial widening :P

Couple of things to note from my perspective:
1) bodykit design elements should flow with the original bio design of the car. For me and what I may/will do is ensure that the changes are subtle, and flow with the original design of the car. Hence the design of my guards is integrate with the factory widebody panels. I could have taken an easier road and just copied the original front wide arch and spaced it out by 25mm. But because the curves and transitions which make the widebody arches, are so subtle and shallow, it wasn't as easy to just make a copy and space it out. Same goes for taking the whole guard and putting a spacer on the mounting points to push it out. Creates gaps on the guard to door panel line (some may like that for cooling purposes/aesthetics - but that is another discussion point).

In reality, the car is actually very hard to design for, but not impossible. The way I see it, a number of aftermarket manufacturers have designed to suit the trends of the time and production process (taking into account the need to suit 95% of car panel fitment), but none have taken the subtle route. One should be able to say, that belongs on the car, not something that was stuck on the car.

2) panel lines should remain intact on the car to not disrupt the eye. Eg where a lip is added to the front bumper and front guard, a horizontal line is formed which breaks the panel line between the bumper and the guard. This also happens at the rear of the car as well. A number of modern cars have the guard mould around the headlights and use the top of the bumper as the horizontal line which is normally carried through. The vertical line break is the hardest thing to address and the easiest way to do this is have a black car to hide the panel lines/break. Quick mockup:

eg horizontal line breaks up the vertical panel gap
Image

eg bumper line that creates horizontal line as part of the guard
Image

there is a way to potentially address this, by matching the sill line.

3) fitting other car make elements to the Celica - sometimes works, most times doesn't. Better to actually design and fabricate something that is for the car vs hack something together. Looks cheap and nasty mostly.

4) very few side skirts have been integrated into the body under the quarter panel. On the car, there is a plastic panel stuck on there and someone just needs to remove it and make a body kit to fit the space - would integrate side skirts very easily into the curve of the car

5) fibreglass vs ABS plastic - no one is going to build an aluminium buck and plug for injection moulding parts for a 25+ year old car (original bio design prob dates back to 1987 considering a 2-3 year design to production cycle completion in 1989). Suffer with fibreglass or if you're lucky, maybe carbon or kevlar. Not worth a $$$ CNC mould for what would be a very limited production run. Face it, our cars are old and not popular except for enthusiasts - you won't get a lot of aftermarket stuff for our cars. We're lucky that small light engineering/motorsports companies actually bother to make products to meet very limited and bespoke demands.

6) rear bumper/spat/extension - always preferred the SW20 Tom's rear bumper. Has the sweep and angle that you mentioned. But see point 2 re panel line break if this was introduced.

7) adding skirts/lips to increase the body area to the eye making it lower and more modern. Challenge is the way the body curves under the car like a pebble or river stone. The undercut reduces the immediate visible body area and makes it seem smaller than it is from various angles. Dump the car on it's ass with 16" rims, coilovers/cut springs and be all hella-ugly, but really one just needs to give proportion to the overall car with the addition of wider wheels which fill the arch without raising the car. 17x8 with 40 section tyre and 20mm spacer on the back is the common solution as you know, anything else just isn't very appealing to the eye.

8) the intersection between the black of the front indicator lights to the top of the bumper annoys me. The rear lights and plint are an integrated housing which completes a shape, whereas at the front, the 'whole' of the front aesthetics is broken up by the lack of integration of the black front spoiler

visible here:
Image

thinking here: visible right angle on a curvy shape just doesn't work. Black car's hide this well
Image

9) you asked me about if I was going to change the arch opening on my wide body guards, presumably to see whether decreasing the gap between wheel and arch would create a different aesthetic. I'm pretty sure I answered why, but I'll say it again. If I change front arches, then i have to change rear arches, then I start changing the overall design of the car, which is a hell lot of work and is not my plan. I'll add an addendum to those thoughts.

The image that we most associate with the ST185 GT-Four is that of the WRC rally machines which garnered success for Toyota in the early 90's. It is an image that is prevalent through our respective communities as the epitome of the car, especially the tarmac versions. In saying that, my approach is to enhance that image, not detract from it by adding aggressive elements which detract from the overall design of the car. By making significant changes to the body, then we diminish the a powerful and successful image and design in our minds, reducing the design to something that has been clearly altered and mucked about with.

The use of over-arches to change a the wheel well opening is an easy way to achieve this (for that particular example), but again, with such a curvy car with clear panel lines and a historical image in our minds, the addition of over-arches will ultimately detract from the design of the car and just look nasty. Again, I will allude to the ideal of making subtle enhancements and something that looks like it should belong, vs adding something that ultimately diminishes the overall design.

At the end of the day, there are a number of cars which are easier to design and build for than the GT-Four. Such a limited number of cars on the road adds to the uniqueness of the car but the possibilities are limited to those that would put in the effort for little in return, and that isn't good for business. Visual design is good but in practice, industrial design is harder, taking into account the need to work within the manufacturers production envelope (mounting points, OEM specification, design etc). I respect individuality and those that put into practice, their ideas and effort to achieve their vision, but at the end of the day, the need to fit in the envelope restricts the imagination. Far easier to build a tube frame chassis and design a body from scratch, incorporating the design ideas and vision of the creator than to invest so much effort into an already developed platform, albeit an older platform and small community.

This perspective is mine and what my friends have discussed for years with regards to my Celica. With them developing their own respective wide body kits and constant analysis and critique of the GT-Four over the years I have been building my car, along with a healthy love of cars and design, I think that my assessment is fair in the ideas and concepts it introduces and the challenges that are present with regards to ST18x chassis and GT-Four.

Take it as something to think about more than anything.

Cheers, Dave
GT Four Adovansu "I want to enjoy the powerful and nimble agility behavior."

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Elephant: http://www.alltrac.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=26687
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Re: st185 body kit research and concepts (AT club homework)

Postby soarer.jzz30 » Fri Oct 03, 2014 6:55 am

So I made a thing recently. Love or hate, looks good to me so far
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Re: st185 body kit research and concepts (AT club homework)

Postby soarer.jzz30 » Fri Oct 03, 2014 6:56 am

Image
Last edited by soarer.jzz30 on Fri Oct 03, 2014 7:16 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: st185 body kit research and concepts (AT club homework)

Postby soarer.jzz30 » Fri Oct 03, 2014 6:56 am

For some reason it won't upload from my phone. Sorry for the repost. Will make img link
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Re: st185 body kit research and concepts (AT club homework)

Postby CMS-GT4 » Tue Oct 07, 2014 2:23 am

Deecee,
It would have been nice to have more pics, but I haphazardly threw that together. I even missed a lot of points I meant to talk on, but I got tired even doing it and didn't have an notes. If you want to post more pics here, I would be happy to look at them. I will be doing follow up vids though once I start making my own bits.

I agree about the car being hard to design for, and most companies following the trends. Sadly the trends of the past 20 years did not fit the body design well. At least the trends chosen. I think some of the things designed towards the Supra, rx7, and some porsche models might had worked OK on the 185, but sadly the wrong things were chosen.

I see what you mean with the horizontal line, but after seeing the savage lip and the camaro lip, I think it isn't too difficult to work around. Not to mention the honda lip, seems to work well. The hard part is where it meets closer to the front of the bumper that creates a flow that works with the eye.
Some of the body kits that create a line above the bumper cover from the corner light to the fender are a good solution, sadly all the bumpers made that way are awful on the entire front area. They follow a tactic similar to the oem supra bumper.

There might be a material that will work for making a body kit. Seems there is a sheet of plastic you can buy that can be vacuum formed over a party. You might be able to fiberglass the original and then form the plastic over it then add your own tabs with a plastic welder. I was reading up on it the other day. Seems places in the US offer the services to do it. The materials are cheap, but the vacuum is expensive. Seems some use apply some heat to it to shape it over fenders and create plastic fenders.

I think its good to talk about and continue to chew on the idea with the group. Most will say leave it stock, but I think there is something here that can be done to improve the car. Of course ascetics are personal taste are none of us will agree totally with what we come up with. I want to see how yours ends up though because I liked the direction it was going.

I will likely not be messing with mine again until next spring. My air flow project and alignment and interior are my priority for the rest of the year. When I pick it up though, I will be starting with the front lip and doing a video on it and working my way to the back.
Coldiron
92 st185 (205 swap) | 03 350Z Track (sold) | 13 Pilot | 17 Mazda3
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Re: st185 body kit research and concepts (AT club homework)

Postby psipwrd » Tue Oct 07, 2014 9:57 am

I like the rear spats but have you thought about trimming them so they're not touching the muffler? Would be a shame if all that work and research resulted in blackened or even melted spats...

These stopped short but I like the way they compiment the lines on the bottom of the car.
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