Long-time Porsche owner looking for All-trac

dannoxyz

New member
Hi folks, I've been a 944 Turbo (951) fan for a couple of decades. Owned quite a few throughout the years; turned many of them into racecars. Still a great value in a stock car you can take straight to the racetrack. But when you start wanting to upgrade, the bang-for-the-buck just doesn't compare to Toyotas. Alas, the pace of technology has left this car behind.

I'm looking to field a World Time Attack car in the next couple of years. One of my friends is fielding a 951 and from his experience, it's fighting a losing battle versus the 1000bhp+ EVOs and WRXs.

I'm partial to an All-trac probably because my 1st car was an MKII Supra back in high-school. And I think EVOs and WRXs are just butt-ugly. Aerodynamics plays a big role in WTAC and the Celica shape is so much better.

So what'ya think? Can an All-trac be turned into a WTAC contender?
 

CMS-GT4

Active member
I think it can be done. Before starting I would look at the rule book and see what is allowed, then read through some of the suspension forums here and engine builds and do a budget sheet of what you would think is a competitive build. Nothing is cheap, and a lot of stuff for these cars have to be fabricated.
You can build yourself a semi affordable race strut by using the Koni 8611 RACE inserts or looking at the Bilstein 50mm universal rally struts. Both will require some fabrication, and will likely end up in the $2500 range, which is somewhat affordable compared to your other options will start at about 4500 and up. There are a couple of cheaper coilover options that can be used as a road race setup too, but if its a dedicated care you might as well look at the higher end stuff.
If your tall, look at a non sunroof version, but if you can't find one you can remove and plug the sunroof to gain headspace and loose weight. The weights balance is about 60/40 and the cars often weigh around 3300-3500lbs. They can weight 2900lbs if you pull out all the unneeded stuff before going to composites. You will also need to do some engine research to deal with oil starvation on hard turns for earlier gen 3sgtes. A nice option though is other toyota engines fit, so you can expand on what you build in the car, but the 3s will likely get you your best bang for your buck.
IMHO the biggest hold back will be the LSD system. Those modern cars are using something a bit more advanced than the Celica. There are some mechanical LSD options for the alltrac but the rear one is the only affordable one. There is a possible decently priced front LSD option, but the center diff can only either get the fluid upgraded or spend the over 10K for the active center lsd.
Look around the site, and look for some of the autox builds and maybe even some of the rally builds to get some ideas.
You can still get much of the TTE rally parts, but most of them cost much more than just paying a fabricator to make a comparable one off part.
 

dannoxyz

New member
Thanks for the info! My budget's in the $50k-range. Many teams are well over $100k. :(

AERODYNAMICS - is about 50% of the equation. The 1000bhp+ cars have the reserve to trade for downforce wings front+rear. And still walk away from the 951s on the straights. With better aero to start with, less power needs to be traded off compared to the WRXs and EVOs.

WEIGHT - didn't realize they were so heavy. Many track 951s are in the 2300-2400 lb range. I suppose weight is "free" in that bits and pieces can be tossed. Many floor-panel sections can be tossed when a roll-cage is welded in. Bolt-on composite panels won't be a problem, I can build those in-house. What's the lightest an All-trac has been trimmed to?

POWER - What's a realistic power-level for a 5-hr engine? 800-1000bhp?

SUSPENSION - custom dampers won't be a problem. Cutting & welding is 2nd-nature. Are there any double-wishbone transplants available? If need-be, one can be built from scratch, but that's last-resort due to development time & costs. Suppose we can cut up a MKIV Supra and weld the pick-up points & panels onto an ST. Then again, that's not so critical in a racetrack car. Just need to be able to handle 10/12" wide slicks.

DRIVETRAIN - I think viscous centre diff should be fine. More critical is there a torsen unit available for rear-end? From actual track experience, I've found it to be smoother and more controllable at the limit than clutch-pack locking units.

I can take some more time with searches, but it really helps to be pointed in the right direction. Thank you for your guidance. :)
 

Corey

Active member
dannoxyz":iayn3f09 said:
DRIVETRAIN - I think viscous centre diff should be fine. More critical is there a torsen unit available for rear-end? From actual track experience, I've found it to be smoother and more controllable at the limit than clutch-pack locking units.

Factory Toyota Torsen LSD was an option on these cars. It came standard on the RC/CS/Groupe A trim levels and ST205.
 

underscore

Well-known member
dannoxyz":1kvz165u said:
What's the lightest an All-trac has been trimmed to?

Off the top of my head I'm not sure, but I can think of a lot of places o strip weight from a car that is going to be a dedicated track machine. Things like the doors have a lot of extra reinforcement that could be removed when you're adding a cage, the rear hatch + glass is very heavy and last I checked lightweight replacements are available.

dannoxyz":1kvz165u said:
POWER - What's a realistic power-level for a 5-hr engine? 800-1000bhp?

I know of a few cars on here pushing power in that range fairly reliably, I'd be curious to know how far you can go if you only need to get 5hrs out of it.

dannoxyz":1kvz165u said:
SUSPENSION - custom dampers won't be a problem. Cutting & welding is 2nd-nature. Are there any double-wishbone transplants available? If need-be, one can be built from scratch, but that's last-resort due to development time & costs. Suppose we can cut up a MKIV Supra and weld the pick-up points & panels onto an ST. Then again, that's not so critical in a racetrack car. Just need to be able to handle 10/12" wide slicks.

If permitted you could probably convert the front end to tube and change the suspension to whatever you like, the tricky part might be getting custom axles to mate up to the hub you pick.

dannoxyz":1kvz165u said:
DRIVETRAIN - I think viscous centre diff should be fine. More critical is there a torsen unit available for rear-end? From actual track experience, I've found it to be smoother and more controllable at the limit than clutch-pack locking units.

As Corey said an OEM Torsen rear is available from the 185 CS/RC/Grp A and 205.
 

CMS-GT4

Active member
Glad to hear you have a real budget. Sadly the stock torsen is not good for any high power racing. Too many have been broken on these and the UK forums. You would really need to look at the rear clutch type options for your power levels.
TTA makes a clutch type front LSD that fits our gearbox, and an active center lsd that took their gtfour power corolla to the top of the pack. Of course expect to pay 16k just for the center lsd. There is one possible front torsen unit but I only know of one person to have bought it. There is a thread on it here. TRD made a front and center LSD, but discontinued and most used example are broken. So reliability could be a concern.

Suspension
I was talking to someone about using a LS400 rear end as conversion. I have no measurements yet, but I will be staying macpherson myself. If its in the rules, I would just build my own subframes and adapt whatever other toyota parts I could. Right now we are talking about bump steer and roll center correction for these cars. You can get all the TTE parts, but they are expensive, and you might as well make your own stuff. For example they quoted me 1500EU each LCA and I am have a set of two made about 700usd.
weverssport.com/rallysport/?product_cat=front-suspension
Also check out this awd converted scion. The oem suspension is slightly evolved version of ours as it uses the 7th gen celica setup. Look how they redesigned the front end. I wonder if there is room to do something similar on the 5th gen. http://www.motoiq.com/MagazineArticles/ ... on-tC.aspx

Weight
I think the lightest one I know of was 2800lbs, but he had to add weight to stay in class. I know the fwd model has been stripped to 2200ish lbs, and the awd model is 400-500lbs more. The fwd car did not have any composites and was all stock parts. Toyota offered a lightweight model of the gtfour that came in the 2900lb range, but only in Japan. It had interior but lacked all the luxury items, ac, sunroof etc.. One thing to note about this car is toyota is over built, and of course this one was meant to rally. Some parts are going to have some extra weight. If you compare the gearbox to others you will see it being much larger. The engine and gearbox are heavy, but strong. So if you can get the car down to the 2800lb range by dropping the usually interior items, ac etc.. then you can start looking at the composites. Lighter hoods, CF drivedshaft, fiberglass rear hatch with lexan glass, should net you even more weight loss.

Power
I am not as keen in this department. I have been here a long time, and I know some resources are not as available as they used to be. Top secret Japan used to sell a 1000hp capable 3sgte for about 10k. They used that on their famous 200+ mph supra. There are a few high hp 3sgte's here but they are mostly drag racers. I don't know much on long term running at that power. I know the 3sgte has proved itself in endurance racing, but at levels like 500 or so. Its worth looking into a good engine builder or keeping an eye out for a 503e engine. It was the race engine that the 3s came from. You might not have as much support but its also a engine that has proved itself. It was in the 1000hp Pike peak celica.

Some builds worth looking into:
http://gt4dc.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php? ... highlight=
viewtopic.php?f=44&t=25070
viewtopic.php?f=44&t=43415
viewtopic.php?f=44&t=48645
viewtopic.php?f=44&t=21126
http://www.superstreetonline.com/featur ... ps-200mph/
http://kaferjca0.tripod.com/3sgteinfo.htm
There are more, but the search feature isn't as good since the forum upgrade.

If it were me, I would look for someone who really knew how to build the 3s, or at least look into the good stuff like TTE. Try some other forums too. This forum used to have a lot of info, but it crashed. It still has lots of good info, but its harder to find and many of the members don't check in as much as they used to. We have all gotten older and busier. Gt4dc is a good one, and you might as well joint the GT4oc as well. Its a paid membership, but they are more connected than most gtfour forums for hunting parts. There are some things in Australia worth hunting for, but that will all be up to google searches. The mr2 forums have a bulk of the engine data purely on 3sgte.

For Suspension, I would just get your alltrac, plot everything and spend some time in software making adjustments and figuring out what will work best. I don't have much of a budget, so I am doing simple things like taking bumpsteer and trying to adjust roll center. There is a lot of data and resources for hunting down cross compatible toyota stuff. For example we can convert to 5x114 bolt pattern making more wheel options available. Since you will likely be ordering custom wheels, that is likely less issue for you. Speaking of wheels. 275/40/17 will fit under the fenders with a little massaging. One member fit 315s after cutting his fenders. You can go the route of this race car and make flairs.
http://www.buschor-motorsport.ch/motorr ... ergalerie/

Anyhow, this car has a huge racing heritage, and lots of options, you just have to be creative and patient and I think you can make it work for you. Certainly not as easy as owning a Evo or WRX and making a few clicks online to get parts, but I think its a great platform. Good luck.
 

gt4rcdude

New member
Sounds like you're looking for a beater. If your looking for near perfection.. Southern car. ZERO RUST. Interior/exterior restored 6 years/20k miles ago. Castrol decals added last year and easily removable. Parts list too long to list here. Genuine Toyota parts used when possible. $20k.






Without decals:



The List:

Engine:
JDM 3SGTE from clip. 36K miles, new seals, belts, pump, timing belt etc.
CT20b turbo: black powder coated compressor
TVIS butterflies removed, holes heli-arced, port matched.
Valve cover black powder coat
Intake manifold black powder coat
RC/CS water to air intercooler, black powder coat
RC/CS proper motor mount and hard pipe water lines
RC/CS proper starter(smaller than US for hard pipes clnc)
ST205 pump/with relay
ST205 front heat exchanger/shock mounted
TRD plug wires
Exhaust manifold black ceramic coated
Turbo heat shield black ceramic coated
Custom cold air intake with K&N filter behind fender liner
3 inch SS turbo back, mandrel bent exhaust with oversized flex section
Random Technologies catalytic converter
Magnaflo SS muffler

Blitz Access ECU
Blitz type R dual solenoid boost controller
Greddy turbo timer (not connected)



Driveline:

XTC 12lb chromoly flywheel
Clutch Masters stage one clutch
SS Braided clutch line
Updated genuine Toyota synchro's
All CV joints rebuilt
RC/CS Torsen limited slip differential

Suspension:

TEIN coilovers
Whiteline adjustable swaybar

Wheels/Brakes

Enkei 17x8 +35 wheels at 15.5 lbs each. x5 (incl. spare)
H&R 25 mm rear spacer
Wilwood Front and rear 4 piston calipers, forged. Properly sized for correct bias. Custom brackets.
Wilwood two piece rotors on custom hats. OEM parking brake remains.
SS braided brake lines
Currently Falken RT 615's , 225/55R17

Body

PPG gloss black, glass, bumpers, wing, handles all removed for paint
Windshield replaced at paint
RC/CS hood, bumper including accessories for each purchased new
RC/CS proper windshield squirters (no small feat finding those)
93 rear tail lights
JDM front corner lights
RC/CS engine undertrays, modified to accommodate ST205 heat exchanger

Modifications to OEM

Rear seat removed(new leather covered ones in storage)
Custom cover with OEM matching carpet with access panels
Battery/ stereo amps reside under access panels
Optima "red top"
1/0 oxygen free cable

ICE

Kenwood Excelon x711 head unit w/ 5v output
Blitzsafe iPod adapter
Coustic XM-3 crossover
Audio Art bass amp
Precision Power 4 channel full range
Kicker RMB 8's in doors
Memphis Audio component fronts
Memphis Audio 2 way carbon fiber rears.

Interior

Leather seats recovered using Katskinz leather
triple gauge pod with boost, EGT, Innovate Motorsports AFR
TWM short thro shifter
TRD shift knob

There's more, I'm getting tired!

gt4rcman at gmail
 

msanders2

New member
Holy shit, your alive and actually posted! Been forever! Why on earth would you consider selling the most perfect looking Alltrac many of us have ever seen?

gt4rcdude":3fz9okiz said:
Sounds like you're looking for a beater. If your looking for near perfection.. Southern car. ZERO RUST. Interior/exterior restored 6 years/20k miles ago. Castrol decals added last year and easily removable. Parts list too long to list here. Genuine Toyota parts used when possible. $20k.






Without decals:



The List:

Engine:
JDM 3SGTE from clip. 36K miles, new seals, belts, pump, timing belt etc.
CT20b turbo: black powder coated compressor
TVIS butterflies removed, holes heli-arced, port matched.
Valve cover black powder coat
Intake manifold black powder coat
RC/CS water to air intercooler, black powder coat
RC/CS proper motor mount and hard pipe water lines
RC/CS proper starter(smaller than US for hard pipes clnc)
ST205 pump/with relay
ST205 front heat exchanger/shock mounted
TRD plug wires
Exhaust manifold black ceramic coated
Turbo heat shield black ceramic coated
Custom cold air intake with K&N filter behind fender liner
3 inch SS turbo back, mandrel bent exhaust with oversized flex section
Random Technologies catalytic converter
Magnaflo SS muffler

Blitz Access ECU
Blitz type R dual solenoid boost controller
Greddy turbo timer (not connected)



Driveline:

XTC 12lb chromoly flywheel
Clutch Masters stage one clutch
SS Braided clutch line
Updated genuine Toyota synchro's
All CV joints rebuilt
RC/CS Torsen limited slip differential

Suspension:

TEIN coilovers
Whiteline adjustable swaybar

Wheels/Brakes

Enkei 17x8 +35 wheels at 15.5 lbs each. x5 (incl. spare)
H&R 25 mm rear spacer
Wilwood Front and rear 4 piston calipers, forged. Properly sized for correct bias. Custom brackets.
Wilwood two piece rotors on custom hats. OEM parking brake remains.
SS braided brake lines
Currently Falken RT 615's , 225/55R17

Body

PPG gloss black, glass, bumpers, wing, handles all removed for paint
Windshield replaced at paint
RC/CS hood, bumper including accessories for each purchased new
RC/CS proper windshield squirters (no small feat finding those)
93 rear tail lights
JDM front corner lights
RC/CS engine undertrays, modified to accommodate ST205 heat exchanger

Modifications to OEM

Rear seat removed(new leather covered ones in storage)
Custom cover with OEM matching carpet with access panels
Battery/ stereo amps reside under access panels
Optima "red top"
1/0 oxygen free cable

ICE

Kenwood Excelon x711 head unit w/ 5v output
Blitzsafe iPod adapter
Coustic XM-3 crossover
Audio Art bass amp
Precision Power 4 channel full range
Kicker RMB 8's in doors
Memphis Audio component fronts
Memphis Audio 2 way carbon fiber rears.

Interior

Leather seats recovered using Katskinz leather
triple gauge pod with boost, EGT, Innovate Motorsports AFR
TWM short thro shifter
TRD shift knob

There's more, I'm getting tired!

gt4rcman at gmail
 
He posts a lot more on celicatech aka The Captain.
And I don't think he is selling, he is just saying to get an alltrac to that state it's about 20k.
 

CMS-GT4

Active member
I don't think the OP intends on building a show car. He is likely looking for one that he won't feel bad cutting up.
 

underscore

Well-known member
^ in that case there's a rough, rust free JDM narrowbody GTFour up here for $2000 Canadian, so basically free with the current rates.
 

deecee

New member
Been watching this with a bit of interest but haven't had much time to discuss in depth. The others have made some valuable contributions in terms of ideas and technical knowledge.
From me:
1) where are you located in the world
2) 50k isn't going to go far in the world of WTAC. I'm assuming you'd be racing in Clubsprint class?
3) read the rules, work within the rules eg suspension, aero etc restrictions
4) buy as much off the shelf stuff as possible unless you need to build custom
5) ensure all equipment is serviceable and easily replaceable. Custom stuff that breaks and needs to be replaced in a hurry is no good during racing
6) buy a car with various mods done already. Always hard to identify which cars haven't been totally thrashed, but I'm sure you have a good eye
7) focus build on areas that will get you the most performance for the investment - suspension, brakes, engine, aero (prob in that order)

Honestly a lot can be done within WTAC rules, but I think the $50k budget is on the low side. Almost just as easy to buy a car which is more technologically advanced and add some more power and aero. Nothing wrong with a technical challenge but having been in the pits at WTAC in 2011/12, there is a huge investment in building a car to a competitive level.
 

dannoxyz

New member
Thanks for all the info, I'm going to take some time to digest it.

Yes, Clubsprint for WTAC. I'm going to take 2-3 years to get there. Will build up the car to the limits of the rules and do a lot of other events in the meantime. Will probably include another $50k not specifically for WTAC. I'm in central CA and see Alltracs occasionally, rust-free samples seem to be common in Ca. Beaters will be fine, going to rebuild from ground up anyway.

Anyone here go to Laguna Seca or Sears Point regularly? I'm doing trackdays for testing at those places at least once a month.

See ya!
 

Hotrodhendrix

New member
Just wanted to pop in and say it would be really cool to see done. If you do end up working on the project dont forget to do a "Project thread" on here so we can all follow/help if possible.

~James
 

Sifu

New member
Hotrodhendrix":2uku502x said:
Just wanted to pop in and say it would be really cool to see done. If you do end up working on the project dont forget to do a "Project thread" on here so we can all follow/help if possible.

~James
Welcome! I'm.just here to mooch custom parts. But yes keep us updated.
 

deecee

New member
dannoxyz":1spu9tmo said:
Thanks for all the info, I'm going to take some time to digest it.

Yes, Clubsprint for WTAC. I'm going to take 2-3 years to get there. Will build up the car to the limits of the rules and do a lot of other events in the meantime. Will probably include another $50k not specifically for WTAC. I'm in central CA and see Alltracs occasionally, rust-free samples seem to be common in Ca. Beaters will be fine, going to rebuild from ground up anyway.

Anyone here go to Laguna Seca or Sears Point regularly? I'm doing trackdays for testing at those places at least once a month.

See ya!
You've noted that you are located in California in the US and want to take the car to World Time Attack Challenge in Australia with a Clubsprint car?
I would question the value of the effort to only build at Clubsprint level if you want to transport the car to Australia.

Or are you planning to race in the States? If so, then any rules should be aligned to your local competition unless you are aligning to WTAC rules if you are planning on travelling.

Don't mind me, I'm just acting as a check to ensure your plans and requirements at the start of the project are defined to ensure you don't get bogged down later on.
 

quieter

Member
hi and welcome to the forums, cant wait to see your project if you ever do choose an st185 to build for rally!! if your interested in those rare tte parts for our models you can check http://www.gt4oc.net/ alot of these people come from europe so shipping is expensive :S, hell if i was you id import a tte chassis because your car wont be street legal or will it be? and yeah a 3s-gt would be a dream come true lol
 
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