darthripley
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got my car back from ats: the good, the bad, and the ugly
- Thread starter grip addict
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db":9dzbhnaa said:toayoztan":9dzbhnaa said:However, I just like to mention that Dan shouldn't have to ask what's wrong with his car. I'm sure any customer would of course like to know if something is wrong/deficient. I would, if i was any customer of any business. He brought it to you for a reason...either he was incompetent at putting it together, couldn't make some repairs, or didn't know what was wrong. Therefore, anything left deficient, I feel should have been brought up.
All vendors complete work orders based on the 'scope of work' for the project as decided upon by the client. Those vendors will complete the work based on what was specified in accordance with that scope of work. To assume that they will fix things outside that scope, or even inspect and report back things that weren't directly related to the maintenance and repairs being done is ridiculous. If the scope of work was engine rebuild and installation, anything else not specified shouldn't be assumed to have been repaired or inspected.
I work in real estate management for large communities and deal with numerous vendors on a daily basis. If I am not specific in my proposed scope of work for projects, I understand that things outside that scope are likely to remain undiscovered and untouched. This is the way of things. If you wanted ATS to break down the entire car and look it over with a magnifying glass and a flashlight, you should've requested that during the proposal process. After which, I'd assume that ATS would charge appropriately for the additional labor that this would require.
As long as ATS completed everything in their scope of work, which I assume they have based on the replies, you are unreasonably expecting far more than what you paid/asked for. When you have a business that does as much work as ATS does, you have to be prudent with your time and complete the projects based on the scope of work. Routinely doing more than what was paid for/specified will ruin the company financially down the road.
db, I agree, the company/whomever should not have to comb everything over with a magnifying glass outside of the scope. However, if they came across the problem (whether inevitably or not) while working/focusing on the main issues, I feel it should be noted and told to the customer. I hope it makes sense what i'm trying to say? ATS even admitted they knew of the deficiencies...whether they combed it with a magnifying glass out of consideration or by stumbling over them during the main job. They also admitted there was plenty of time. So who should take the initiative...Dan asks? Or ATS informs the customer? :shrug:
I didn't say i expected ATS to tell Dan EVERYTHING that was wrong. I just said if there were any deficiencies that ATS DID have knowledge of, well... :shrug: I think it's good practice, I feel it helps to show the company is looking out as they came across the issue/deficiencey and to inform the customer what else is wrong (that they may not have clue/knowledge of). At this point, i'm speaking on a general basis.
Hope I've cleared up what I meant, I didn't mean to come across as unreasonable.
Bryan
alltracman78
Active member
A couple of things.
Forgive me if I sound blunt, I'm not trying to be an ass, I just don't feel like typing more than I already did. I'm not trying to jump anyones shit.
That wire gauge for the IC pump is fine. OEM size for the 205 is IIRC 16 gauge. The 185 a gauge smaller I believe. I'm not a huge fan of exposed connections though, especially in the engine compartment, but I do live where there's much more corrosion than Texas.
Zip ties are totally fine for vacuum lines. IMO there's not anything better really. The stock clamps are only good for so much. Zip ties clamp harder and will hold higher boost.
You don't need T bolt clamps for TMIC piping. Good quality hose clamps will work just fine.
A impact won't spin the filter when you tighten the banjo bolt, which means it very well could have gone unnoticed.
And don't tell me it's not safe to use an impact on it, I've got plenty of experience using them. Using an impact doesn't mean it's a 1/2" and you're tightening full throttle; there's 3/8 and 1/4 " guns as well, and most have trigger control.
I've seen GOOD techs use them on spark plugs [I don't go that far].
The point-most people that do this stuff for a living use air tools for the vast majority of nuts and bolts. It's much faster, and time = $$
Lastly, looking at the condition of the engine bay [I haven't seen the car in person, I can only go by the pics], I most likely wouldn't have bothered with most of that stuff either, with the exception of the antiseize [that's half assed IMO] and the dist.
A small thing here and there isn't bad, especially if the car is maintained, but every little side project adds up quickly, especially when you have to "custom" it. I personally don't mind doing a little extra, especially if the car is well maintained, but personally there's a limit to how much I'm going to do that I'm not getting paid for. Business isn't the same as doing your buddy a favor.
Would you have wanted a bill for all the extra time to do that stuff at however close to $100/hr he most likely charges?
Forgive me if I sound blunt, I'm not trying to be an ass, I just don't feel like typing more than I already did. I'm not trying to jump anyones shit.
That wire gauge for the IC pump is fine. OEM size for the 205 is IIRC 16 gauge. The 185 a gauge smaller I believe. I'm not a huge fan of exposed connections though, especially in the engine compartment, but I do live where there's much more corrosion than Texas.
Zip ties are totally fine for vacuum lines. IMO there's not anything better really. The stock clamps are only good for so much. Zip ties clamp harder and will hold higher boost.
You don't need T bolt clamps for TMIC piping. Good quality hose clamps will work just fine.
A impact won't spin the filter when you tighten the banjo bolt, which means it very well could have gone unnoticed.
And don't tell me it's not safe to use an impact on it, I've got plenty of experience using them. Using an impact doesn't mean it's a 1/2" and you're tightening full throttle; there's 3/8 and 1/4 " guns as well, and most have trigger control.
I've seen GOOD techs use them on spark plugs [I don't go that far].
The point-most people that do this stuff for a living use air tools for the vast majority of nuts and bolts. It's much faster, and time = $$
Lastly, looking at the condition of the engine bay [I haven't seen the car in person, I can only go by the pics], I most likely wouldn't have bothered with most of that stuff either, with the exception of the antiseize [that's half assed IMO] and the dist.
A small thing here and there isn't bad, especially if the car is maintained, but every little side project adds up quickly, especially when you have to "custom" it. I personally don't mind doing a little extra, especially if the car is well maintained, but personally there's a limit to how much I'm going to do that I'm not getting paid for. Business isn't the same as doing your buddy a favor.
Would you have wanted a bill for all the extra time to do that stuff at however close to $100/hr he most likely charges?
grip addict
New member
alright, first i want to apologize for not getting back to this so quickly, i am dealing with staffing changes at my job, and i wanted to be able to devote my full attention and time to the topic at hand.
second, i want to reiterate that i am not feeling hateful towards ats, or trying to bring them down. nor am i trying to get free stuff out of the deal. these are just pics of how i got my car back. i figured they spoke for themselves. i'll leave everyone to draw their own conclusions(which they have been).
i do not feel in any way shape or form that i should have been given performance parts, or any parts or work under the table. i am happy and willing to pay for any and all work done to my car. on my second, almost solidified invoice, aaron only charged me for one spark plug. i contacted him via email and this was fixed.
i want to point out on the topic of my brakes and clutch(and to a lesser extent, the cruise control), that i am not surprised, nor really upset that this wasn't touched since it's not on my bill. i just wish that something would have been said to me, so i could have either had ats or another shop in the area to take care of it for me. the drive back home could have presented a dangerous situation, if i needed to come to a stop in a hurry.
as far as the condition of my car when i dropped it off, what was half disassembled? my glovebox was in the trunk, along with the exhaust manifold. there was no turbo, or downpipe. my left fender needs to be replaced? i don't think anything was half disassembled. if anything, i think that made the job easier to complete. and of course my car wasn't running, you guys were going to do an engine rebuild for me.
time to start quoting-
if anything concerning this topic, i was pointing out that there had been a new spot worn into my bov, and i found this out on my own a mile away from the shop.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v639/eggbeater59/ats build/atsbill.jpg
this is when you asked for the deposit. no one had said anything about a deposit to me until this. as clearly viewable, i responded the same day in attempt to take care of the deposit. aaron, i called your shop a week afterwards and spoke to scott, since i had heard nothing back since the email i sent shown on 10/9. scott asked you while i was on the phone, and i was informed that you had not received that email. while on that very same phone call, i gave you my information and i was billed for the deposit.
second, i want to reiterate that i am not feeling hateful towards ats, or trying to bring them down. nor am i trying to get free stuff out of the deal. these are just pics of how i got my car back. i figured they spoke for themselves. i'll leave everyone to draw their own conclusions(which they have been).
i do not feel in any way shape or form that i should have been given performance parts, or any parts or work under the table. i am happy and willing to pay for any and all work done to my car. on my second, almost solidified invoice, aaron only charged me for one spark plug. i contacted him via email and this was fixed.
i want to point out on the topic of my brakes and clutch(and to a lesser extent, the cruise control), that i am not surprised, nor really upset that this wasn't touched since it's not on my bill. i just wish that something would have been said to me, so i could have either had ats or another shop in the area to take care of it for me. the drive back home could have presented a dangerous situation, if i needed to come to a stop in a hurry.
as far as the condition of my car when i dropped it off, what was half disassembled? my glovebox was in the trunk, along with the exhaust manifold. there was no turbo, or downpipe. my left fender needs to be replaced? i don't think anything was half disassembled. if anything, i think that made the job easier to complete. and of course my car wasn't running, you guys were going to do an engine rebuild for me.
time to start quoting-
i didn't have any clearance issues when i the car was running up here with the same setup. it's when the ic was moved back, did my bov start to have contact with the hood, causing it to rattle and to lose screws.1 - BOV problems. a) you don't have the complete setup for that intercooler, we did the best we could to securely mount it. b) you don't have the right hood for that intercooler. The correct hood has more room as the front of the intercooler. c) the BOV is welded onto the IC at a poor angle. All work not done by ATS.
if anything concerning this topic, i was pointing out that there had been a new spot worn into my bov, and i found this out on my own a mile away from the shop.
sure, i'm happy to try to blame you. i think throughout this whole situation i have been more than fair and honest. i am not trying to pull a fast one; i provided aaron with links to every thread that i made concerning my build with ats. judging by how freely the filter spins, whomever reattached the fuel feed line to the fuel filter would have had to put their hands on the filter to keep it from moving while tightening.2. The fuel filter problem you supplied a photo of was not work done by ATS. We didn't replace the fuel filter. I presume either you or the previous owner did. But thanks for trying to blame us.
while i am unsure of when you did tear down the motor, i want to clarify that it was I that had asked you over the phone for the original invoice, to see how much money i should set aside for the project.3. You dropped the car off in August. We were extremely busy then. We had it torn down and sent you an estimate about late September. We received the deposit on your work in November and the work started then.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v639/eggbeater59/ats build/atsbill.jpg
this is when you asked for the deposit. no one had said anything about a deposit to me until this. as clearly viewable, i responded the same day in attempt to take care of the deposit. aaron, i called your shop a week afterwards and spoke to scott, since i had heard nothing back since the email i sent shown on 10/9. scott asked you while i was on the phone, and i was informed that you had not received that email. while on that very same phone call, i gave you my information and i was billed for the deposit.
i'm not going to offer a response to everything, but i didn't feel that the bov groove was anything more than cosmetic damage. this i figured i could email you about when i got home, i didn't want to come back to the shop on your day off. i only called you saturday when i felt it was necessary, when the car was dripping oil about 2 hours north of denton.5. You car was running on the Tuesday before you picked it up, and we test drove it on Wednesday and again on Thursday. We dyno'd it on Friday. You test drove the car twice before picking it up. You had over an hour to inspect the car before picking it up. Now you claim you found problems at the gas station 1 mile from ATS, but you didn't come back to ATS?
yes i know it fits, i just don't like extra stuff sticking out. since i was billed for an oem toyota gasket set, i figured the right one would have been put on.9. The exhaust manifold gasket is not upside down. It's a 1993 gasket. It has the extra spot for the additional bolts on the 1993 head/manifolds. It fits the 1991 manifolds/heads just fine.
these bolts were actually loose because i had taken the ecu out of my car, and had plugged it into a friend's in an attempt to rule out a starting issue. i could have bolted it back down 100% stock, but since i knew you would be taking it back out again i figured it would save you some time.13. There are numerous things we fixed or adjusted on your car that do not show up on your bill. For example when I pulled your ECU to install the new chip for the GT28RS all the ECU mounting brackets were loose. Whoever had worked on this car previously has just left them dangling off the ECU.
i'll say it again- i didn't expect free work done, i wouldn't have minded paying more to make sure everything was done.Dan XXX you got exactly what you paid for. It's invoiced on your bill. You will notice there are no items on there for brakes, clutch fluid/bleeding the clutch, installing or selling a BOV or fuel filter. Those were pre-existing problems that were we not asked to fix.
grip addict
New member
we all know a project is never done, and always involves some work. but if i honestly asked you straight to your face if there were any deficiencies of my car that i should know about, would you have not been insulted? that's just silly. and i feel the same way. it sucks finding about all of this stuff on your own, and not being told upfront.As far as problems with the car, you were there when we all stood over Dan's car for an hour and we all said it was a "work in progress" If Dan wanted to know about all the deficiencies of his car he should have asked. We had plenty of time while he was bolting his wheels/tires on.
so does this mean that it was leaking when it was down there?We replaced the distributor o-ring when the car was here. We didn't charge for it either. We hoped that would have fixed any leaks, however Dan's says his distributor is leaking internally (into the cap).
i think i covered my reasoning up above in my last post. while i do appreciate the offer to satisfy me, i think i can take care of everything from here on out. my whole beef with the situation is not that you guys didn't do the work on the table, just that it was never addressed. i don't want to give the impression that i'm a 100% unhappy customer either, the car drives very well and does put down good power. i actually had it dyno'd up here, and the final numbers are pretty consistant. i'll include that in an upcoming post.Dan what are you looking to achieve from this post? This post was the first I have heard of these issues (other than the problems caused by your BOV and your internal leak in the distributor). How can we satisfy you?
while it is unfortunate that you guys feel hurt, what we have is a business relationship. i didn't take my car down to tx to make friends. i brought it down to have you guys fix what was 'broke. and you certainly did, and from what i can tell, you guys did well. it's just the little stuff.
in a quick response to simba- thanks for the info on that, i was planning on having a bead welded on. yesterday as i was actually getting on the highway to head to the dyno, that intake pipe popped off. or more like, it just slipped off the bottom. luckily i was close to my tools, so i was able to go grab them and stood ready on the side of the dynojet in case i needed to make adjustments. i've turned the boost back down to wg in the meantime, until i get it fixed.
and lastly, to alltracman-
wouldn't have bothered me one bit.Would you have wanted a bill for all the extra time to do that stuff at however close to $100/hr he most likely charges?
grip addict
New member
oh, and also as stated previously, aaron did help us out alot with the lug nuts. it would have been a much more interesting trip if ats didn't step up to the plate on that one. thanks for helping us out with that, aaron.
here is the link to the dyno graph that was done yesterday. this is about 17 psi of boost, on an awd dynojet
http://www.alltrac.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=239890#239890
here is the link to the dyno graph that was done yesterday. this is about 17 psi of boost, on an awd dynojet
http://www.alltrac.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=239890#239890
grip addict":2gacqt2l said:it sucks finding about all of this stuff on your own, and not being told upfront.
Time to take some responsibility Dan.
1. Did you install the fuel filter, or the previous owner? Doesn't really matter because we know you installed a motor yourself and you had to take the fuel line off there. You knew about that problem before your car arrived at ATS. If you wanted it fixed you should have said so. We tightened the banjo bolt with a 3/8 14.4 volt Makita cordless impact. Works great. No fuel leaks.
2. the sand in the motor. You need to get your story straight on this one. You specifically told Matt that "some kid dumped sand into my motor." Now you post on here that the shop that sand blasted the intake left sand in there. And you claim it is their fault because they promised to clean it. Why didn't you clean it yourself, or even look in there to make sure it was clean before installing it?
3. brakes - you brought us a non running car that was last driven by you. Why would you expect the condition of your brakes to have changed since you last drove it?
i think i covered my reasoning up above in my last post. while i do appreciate the offer to satisfy me, i think i can take care of everything from here on out. my whole beef with the situation is not that you guys didn't do the work on the table, just that it was never addressed.
From my perspective it looks like you specifically left out KNOWN ISSUES and just hoped ATS would fix them for free. At the time of delivery, no one knew your car and it deficiencies better than you. You had to know about the brakes and the fuel filter. In my opinion telling you that your car is missing tons of parts is as redundant as telling you it is maroon.
in a quick response to simba- thanks for the info on that, i was planning on having a bead welded on. yesterday as i was actually getting on the highway to head to the dyno, that intake pipe popped off. or more like, it just slipped off the bottom.
Take the advice of others on this board and buy the right coupler. With the intercooler installed as ATS did, the IC and couplers would not leak or come off.
and lastly, to alltracman-wouldn't have bothered me one bit.Would you have wanted a bill for all the extra time to do that stuff at however close to $100/hr he most likely charges?
You didn't say that to us. Most of our e-mails were about trying to get the price as low as possible by reusing as many parts from your blown up motor and bartering other parts to us.
Aaron
grip addict":1i2x7hgh said:so does this mean that it was leaking when it was down there?We replaced the distributor o-ring when the car was here. We didn't charge for it either. We hoped that would have fixed any leaks, however Dan's says his distributor is leaking internally (into the cap).
With the condition of your distributor it was impossible to tell if it was leaking. Your rotor had come apart inside the cap, also the center contact piece was missing from your cap so it was just arcing all over the place. Probably let to some weird timing problems and may have helped with the destruction of your old motor.
BTW it cracked ALL FOUR piston's ringlands, not just one.
Aaron
RedCelicaTRD
Moderator
Topic is being locked pending moderator decision.
alltrac.net
New member
Locked it will stay.
It seems to me that everyone wants to throw their own opinion into the game. So it will remain locked to prevent this.
The feedback forum is for someone to report their experience. The vendor/seller has a chance to respond, but that should be it. No extra commentary is required.
It seems to me that everyone wants to throw their own opinion into the game. So it will remain locked to prevent this.
The feedback forum is for someone to report their experience. The vendor/seller has a chance to respond, but that should be it. No extra commentary is required.
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