Wound3s Bought My Car...

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Wound3s Bought My Car...

Postby ion_four » Fri Feb 06, 2009 12:23 am

I sold my alltrac to wound3s on this board. In general, Ben seems like a
nice guy, and "relatively sharp" (as he also said about me.) I got more or
less what I wanted for the car, and there were no shenanigans, before I had
money in hand. What else can you ask for?

However, after purchasing the car, he apparently became unhappy with it,
and went so far as imply I deceived him and asked me to buy the car back
from him. I agreed to discuss buying it back, and helped him with
the MINOR problem it developed (which was fixed.) He then apologized for
his accusation and was presumably satisfied with it. Yet, he goes and posts
the above, garbage, which doesn't make me happy.

wound3S wrote:I bought my alltrac from the seller of this celica about a month ago. His board name is ion_four on this board. He seems to be a relatively sharp guy, but I have had constant problems with the car I bought from him. I should have driven it more and looked it over closer, I would not have bought it if it had showed any of the problems that I'm experiencing now. My alltrac is on megasquirt like this celica, and the wiring is very shoddy. The O2 sensor and manifold air temp sensor have intermittent shorts, which cause it to run really rich, and the ignition cuts out intermittently which violently shakes the car under full and partial load and completely prevents you from driving the car fast. There is also a fairly serious engine oil leak and the car does not idle well at all when cold. He advertised that it gets 25+ mpg on the freeway, but I have not seen 20mpg yet on four or five tanks of driving, including a lot of highway miles. As is, I'm pretty disappointed, especially since he did not include several things with the car that he advertised, including the laptop he used to tune the car, a J&S knockgaurd, SS brake lines, new front wheel bearings, a T3/T4 adaptor, and one spare front CV axle. He's not replying to my emails anymore, which he's probably as busy as I am with school, but i've got a pretty bitter taste in my mouth from the transaction. This is the car I bought from him:
http://www.alltrac.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=30634

I didn't get a close look at this Celica, I think they are awesome old cars too, but I'd make sure to inspect it up one side and down the other before you buy it.


The above post was made in a thread about a car I'm selling on craigslist.

Since the intention of Ben's post was (hopefully) to help potential car
purchasers make a wise decision, I won't criticize the intent of said post.
However, I feel that I have the right to share the following thoughts, so that
future sellers might have help in deciding with whom they might deal, as
well.

He is entitled to his opinion, but I think he should get it straight and not be
duplicitous in what he says to me, in private, and then airs in public.

The following is directed to Ben, but is more of less a public record of our
transaction for anyone interested, and addresses the points he made, above.
----------

Ben, I hate to be rude, and I hope you and others will notice that I don't
lightly engage in personal criticism (I think jdmrocha is the only other
person on this board whose behavior I've criticized), but I figured it was
only a matter of time before you posted a negative statement about me,
considering how poorly you conducted yourself after the purchase of my
car.

In all honesty, I had reservations about selling this car to you, from the
beginning. Not because of the condition of the vehicle, but because you
seemed pretty casual about the whole purchase and rather uninterested in
the finer details of the condition of the car, of which there were many.
However, the decision to buy is up to the buyer, not the seller, and nothing
with this car was misrepresented. I'm sorry if you're not happy with it, but,
as I stated before, I am confident nothing was misrepresented. I just don't
even know where to start, in regard to your statement, so starting from the
beginning will do:

You test drove the car with your brother (who is a mechanic, correct?) for at
least half an hour. When you returned from the drive you didn't really ask
many questions, so I assumed you were satisfied with things. You went
home and mulled it over for a few days and then agreed to pay what I was
asking, if I installed the 600cc injectors and retuned the car, since you were
concerned about the car hitting the fuel-cut I had enabled. You came up
and test drove it again, found it satisfactory and purchased it. I put no
pressure on you (I'm not sure how I could have), and you had every
opportunity to inspect in detail, or even have it inspected, had you desired.
Yet, you did not. Delayed attention to detail, and then subsequent remorse
are not the seller's responsibility, if nothing was misrepresented.

You know that I did all the work on this car myself and that I am not a
professional mechanic, tuner, or anything else for that matter, except
student, at this point in my lift. Yet, you still decided to buy the car which
had nary a system unmodified by me.

Just a few days later, the car apparently started running poorly and the
heater stopped working. So, you sent me a fairly manic, and lengthy, email
in which you asked me to buy back the car for less than you paid, and even
suggested that I deceived you as to its condition.

I responded to this in a civil manner and tried to help you solve the
problems you were having, though I had no obligation to do so. I even
entertained the idea of buying it back from you, if you were truly that
unhappy with it, and inquired what you wanted to do.

I said: "I sold the car because I no longer wanted to play with it, and
because I need money. So, I have little interest in buying it back.
However, I don't want you to think I'm a total shit-head, so exactly how
much would you expect me to pay to take it back?" We could have
discussed this further and you could have washed your hands of it, had it
been that bad, in your mind, but you chose to not address it any further.

Apparently, as I suggested in my email, the problems with the car running
poorly were caused by the wideband O2 controller (which is used for fuel
trim at ALL loads, not just cruise.) I also stated that when I purchased the
car, the climate control wasn't working (which is quite common for 16x
cars) and it was caused by broken solder joints, which were repaired a long
time before. You reset the controller, and things were fixed, and you were
apparently satisfied with my explanation of the heater (which had
functioned flawlessly for a year before sale.)

As proof of your satisfaction, you then called me and also emailed: "I just
wanted to apologize again, I acted like a douche bag earlier this week. "

So, at this point in our transaction, we went from satisfied, to unsatisfied,
back to satisfied, in a matter of what, two days? Apparently in the
intervening time, you've become once again unsatisfied:

You list all these points of how I wronged you, and I really shouldn't take
the time to address any of this. However, I like this board, the community
members (for the most part) and may have an alltrac again, someday. So,
I won't stand to have you crap all over me and my dealings, just because
you aren't happy with yourself and the decision you made.

I'm sorry if you were blinded by the car's speed, but it's an old highly
modified car. Fast, Cheap, Reliable: Pick Two.

Considering 165's with some combination of being screwed-up or not
running are going for $2-3k. I don't think $4k is unreasonable for one with
coilovers, EMS (however poorly tuned or executed you think it is), LSD,
COMPLETE new/rebuilt steering system, bushings, sway bars...the list goes
on.

1) "My alltrac is on megasquirt like this celica, and the wiring is very shoddy."

What exactly is shoddy? Yes, the wiring is not ideal in apparance, or
execution, but every connection that I can recall is soldered and
heatshrinked, or at least covered in electrical tape, if heatshrink wasn't
practical in some cases. The car ran for many many months without me
even touching the wiring, before selling it. So, I'm sure it's acceptable in
reliability.

The system is an interface between four different units (Megasquirt, LC-1,
Ford EDIS, OEM Toyota), which were not meant to be interfaced. So, it's
bound to not be the prettiest. The wiring is easily accessible and viewable,
so why did you not bring it up at the time of sale?

2) You said: "The O2 sensor and manifold air temp sensor have intermittent shorts, which cause it to run really rich, and the ignition cuts out intermittently which violently shakes the car under full and partial load and completely prevents you from driving the car fast."

The O2 sensor is an Innovate LC-1. It has 1 power, 2 ground and 1 signal
wire. The entire wiring is from the factory and is unmodified. I don't see
how something wrong with it could be my fault, since the wiring is
elementary. If the unit isn't working properly, it's not my wiring. As I said
in my email, I had a similar problem, about six months earlier, in which it
seemed like the ignition was cutting out, but I swapped out EVERY ignition
component and the problem persisted, until I reset the wideband. I'm sorry
something is wrong with it, but this problem seemed to be fixed MONTHS
before I even considered selling the car.

3) You said: "There is also a fairly serious engine oil leak..."

My original ad: "The transmission could be better. It's driveable, but 3rd
gear is a bit crunchy and something is leaking a bit, but not too badly."


So, is it not the transmission that is leaking? I thought this was the leak,
and I'm sorry if it was not. However, did you expect the leak to get
better? I realize I said, "a bit", but that was over three months ago. I am
absolutely certain no oil was dripping from the front of the engine, or oil
pan, when I sold this car. It is possible the oil was coming from the engine,
above the transfer case, and I was mistaken as to it's origin. However,
there's not much up there for the oil to have come from. Are you sure it's
not the transmission leaking?

4) You said: "...and the car does not idle well at all when cold."

I told you, in person, that the car had no idle control or cold-start
provisions beyond the adjustment screw and fuel enrichment. I specifically
recall also telling you that it idled rough when first started. I'm sorry if this
got worse with the larger injectors, or if this was not what you expected. I
drove the car a few hours (at least two) before you came to pick it up, and
it started up without any issues and I drove about 2-3 miles, to say, "Good
bye." There were absolutely NO problems with it.

5) You said: "He advertised that it gets 25+ mpg on the freeway, but I have
not seen 20mpg yet on four or five tanks of driving, including a lot of highway miles."

I also told you, (I believe over the phone, since I can't find it in my email)
that I did almost exclusively city driving, and got 18-20 mpg, doing that.
When I took the car on it's only real highway road-trip, I got right about
25.5mpg at 65MPH. I'm sorry if your mileage has varied, but something
that VARIES drastically on season, driving style, speed, etc. is really a
ridiculous thing to call me out on. Are your tires up to pressure? I run my
tires at 38-40psi cold, for better mileage.

6)You said: "As is, I'm pretty disappointed, especially since he did not include several things with the car that he advertised, including the laptop he used to tune the car, a J&S knockgaurd, SS brake lines, new front wheel bearings, a T3/T4 adaptor, and one spare front CV axle."

OK, here I feel that you're accusing me of stealing, which is utter bullshit.
That's the only way to put it.

My for sale post: "How much: $4000 for the car as it currently drives and
the spare parts, if you want them. More for the not-installed performance
parts. "

How much did you pay again? Oh, right...$4000. So, you not only got the
car, as I said, but the EVO injectors, 205 IC and (I intended) the brake lines
and wheel bearings.

Everything we agreed upon was in tubs, except the 205 IC and a few other
things, which were on a wadded-up comforter, next to my air compressor.
When I cleaned up my garage last weekend, I found the brake lines and
wheel bearings between the comforter and air compressor. I didn't email
you yet, because I'm not exactly happy with you, either, and I found some
other spare parts which you'd have to pick up, since they're bigger than I'd
want to mail, if you want them. (Underbody plastic duct, rear wooden ABS
unit cover, a door lock trim piece...etc.)

You asked about the laptop, and I said you probably wouldn't want it, since
it's a Pentium 2 POS, and I'd prefer to keep it, if you didn't mind, since it's
my only PC laptop and I needed something with a serial port for the 77
Celica's Megasquirt.

I'm sorry if you thought I was including everything else, but I didn't intend
for things that wouldn't actually ever be used on the car to be included,
since you'd just turn around and sell them. I didn't think you had any
interested in the turbo adapter, since you seemed gungho for the stock
hybrid (and the adapter isn't that great, for most applications, anyway,
since it needs an internal WG)

It turned out the J&S wouldn't EVER EVER EVER work on the alltrac with the
EDIS ignition, even if it were reprogrammed, because it only has one coil
output, whereas the EDIS has two. So, this would have done you literally
no good.

Honestly, I should have been more clear on those last two things, but I
didn't see them making a difference one way or another, and you didn't ask
about them.

I have no idea about the CV Axle...I'm pretty sure I crammed it into one of those bins. I'll look in the garage, but I don't see how I could have missed that when I cleaned up.

7)You said: "He's not replying to my emails anymore,"

I didn't reply to ONE email, since we last communicated, this is not plural
emails. I haven't done this, because I'm busy, at the time had no idea
where they were, and honestly, because I don't feel like being your best
buddy after you have implicitly called me a shyster (twice, now!)

Seriously, Ben. Maybe you should just rewrite that apology email to me
again. You know, the one where you said you were "acting like a douche
bag".

Just email me your address and I'll send the brake lines and wheel
bearings, unless you want the other stuff, too. If so, let me know when
you'll be up here, and I can put it outside.
Members don't see the above ad. Register now - it's free!
99 Prelude:Koni, Neuspeed, GReddy, Jackson Racing, Hondata
77 Celica GT: KYB, Superpro, Megasquirt, Supra
SOLD: 88 Celica Alltrac, 93 Civic EX Coupe, 90 Civic EX
ion_four
Club Member
 
Posts: 386
Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2005 6:47 pm
Location: Portland, OR

Postby wound3S » Fri Feb 06, 2009 2:51 am

.
Last edited by wound3S on Tue Sep 21, 2010 7:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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wound3S
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Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2005 12:41 am

Postby ion_four » Fri Feb 06, 2009 6:58 pm

As I said before, I am truly sorry if you're not happy with the car.

Your statement, "I'd make sure to inspect it up one side and down the other
before you buy it." Is perfectly justified, out of context, as it's good general
advice.

However, when you put your statement into context, after listing these
points which very from non-issue to outright falsity, it is not fair.

1. The gas mileage
2. The O2 sensor short
3. The MAT sensor short
4. The ignition is cutting out
5. The missing parts

1. As I said, mileage is highly variable. When I measured it, it was the
summer. It is now the winter, and mileage tends to go down. Also, if the
thermostat is bad (as it seemed to be taking a long time to warm up, which
I mentioned to you), this will also kill mileage. Obviously, something is
wrong with the car, so this is at least contributing to the poor mileage.

You told me in an email that you decreased the EGO correction from 40%
down to 10%...If my cruise map was really far off, then this would more
than account for the 25mpg -> 20mpg change, because fueling could be
increased by as much as 30%!

2. 3. 4. The car was running fine at the time of sale, as you say, and
through no magical tricks. I'm sorry it went south the day after you bought
it and not the day before, since I may have been in a better position to fix
it. However, it was running quite well for a long time before I sold it. See
below for more info on this.

5. You agree that which parts were included was vague and that we even
agreed to not include some of them, yet you listed these in your grievances,
which is FALSE. I'm sorry it was unclear, and that some were missing. I
will get the missing brake lines and wheel bearings to you. Honestly, that's
about the only thing I feel you have the right to bitch about, and come
on...I didn't reply to one email...if it was really important, why didn't you
email again or call me instead of just complaining on the board?

So, in conclusion: I just don't think it's fair to list your problems with the
implication that the car was sold as more than it was. Yes, some things
could certainly have been better, but that's how I was rolling around and it
worked. I was more than willing to try and help you with things, but your
over-reactive email made me much less inclined to do so, and because I got
rid of the car to free up time. Just let me know what you want to do about
the parts I DO owe you and


Advice with Problems:

I told you in an email that this sounds exactly like what happened to me
over 6 months ago. At about 2600 or 2700 rpm (a very particular rpm) the
tach would drop out.

I also suspected a bad connection, but I thoroughly tweaked and
inspected everything, swapped out the coil pack, EDIS module, plug wires,
and tried hotter plugs. I even re-aligned the CAS, but nothing! Then, I
disabled the WBO2 and the problem went away! It stayed away for the
remainder of the time I had the car.

If resetting the WB controller doesn't fix it, take out the sensor and blow
torch it. It's become too fouled to be compensated, and will have to be
cleaned out. This isn't really recommended, but worst case is that you'll kill
an already worthless sensor.

I highly doubt there are wiring problems with three different things. It
seems more likely that one thing is flaking out and making the EMS go ape
shit. Have you tried totally disabling/disconnecting the WB and MAT
sensor? It should make the car run poorly, but more consistently poorly. If
the ignition doesn't cut out, you know it's one of those.

The MS doesn't have any "error codes" or limp home mode, so you can
disconnect any and all sensors, besides rpm and it should run (it'll be hard
to keep it running without the MAP, but possible.) This makes for easier
diagnosis. I was able to drive my 77 around the block with just MAP and
rpm, and it actually wasn't too bad.
99 Prelude:Koni, Neuspeed, GReddy, Jackson Racing, Hondata
77 Celica GT: KYB, Superpro, Megasquirt, Supra
SOLD: 88 Celica Alltrac, 93 Civic EX Coupe, 90 Civic EX
ion_four
Club Member
 
Posts: 386
Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2005 6:47 pm
Location: Portland, OR


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