Privatising AllTrac.net

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Privatise AllTrac.net??

Yes
5
11%
No
41
89%
 
Total votes : 46

Postby coyoteboy » Thu Feb 08, 2007 1:12 pm

Well I'm going to start adding to mine purely as a method of keeping track of all the info ive found/generated. Anyone can feel free to add if they like.
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Postby Mr. Sociable » Thu Feb 08, 2007 1:50 pm

I didn't see it suggested...


But how about a PRIVATE writeup forum that only members can acess to help us noobs (read:me) out. The rest can stay public.


I'm not sure if you can do that or not, but I don't see why it wouldn't work since the general concern seems to be with businesses taking information from individuals on here, and that could help at the very least.

:shrug:
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Re: Privatising AllTrac.net

Postby SeanGTS » Thu Feb 08, 2007 1:53 pm

allblackalltrac wrote:I used to have a mentality that some "other" GTFour forums were elitist by having they're board members pay a fee just to join. Some might even argue that even this board has a some what snobby attitude when compared to other boards.

I don’t know maybe I’m just talking out of my ass here but when I start seeing threads linked directly to threads on this board from other boards or plagiarised information and pictures without any credit giving or permission asked of the creator I get very upset.

I also know for a fact that several "businesses" used this board as a resource for information when taking on a job for a client that they have absolutely no experience with and rely souly on the information gathered by these boards’ members, without any credit ever being mentioned.

Suffice to say I am no longer going to contribute any factual threads that can be read by the general public. I’m sorry I know that might be selfish of me but I have been here a long time and contributed a lot and I never asked for anything in return but when I see my word plagiarised that’s when I put my foot down.

Again I don’t know maybe I’m just getting old but I can now see why a lot of the "senior" or "experienced" members stopped posting. Im always contradicting myself so I'll probably change my tune in a few weeks but I would pay to have a private area of the board - I'm seriously thinking about starting up my own website.


Yep, that is the elitist arrogant attitude!

Do you have actual links? I find your post rather comical.
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Postby coyoteboy » Thu Feb 08, 2007 2:00 pm

MR S- You cant prevent businesses signing up as an individual and accessing the "PRIVATE" section mentioned and using that.

I paid to join the OC and to be honest - £20 was WELL worth it, there was so much info there but then if you start charging for peoples info - who benefits? In the OC many people benefited as the club got large discounts to events etc which were passed on to the members. The problem is that as soon as you charge for it you a) stop newbies from seeing exactly how useful the site is and b) the people who pay for it will want a say in how its run and you'll be amazed how complex running a club is.

_________
Defn:
Plagiarism is the practice of claiming, or implying, original authorship, or incorporating material from someone else's written or creative work in whole or in part, into ones own, without adequate acknowledgment.
________

Surely a link to the original post is perfect acknowledgement? What you like - paying for it?
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Postby Mr. Sociable » Thu Feb 08, 2007 2:09 pm

coyoteboy wrote:MR S- You cant prevent businesses signing up as an individual and accessing the "PRIVATE" section mentioned and using that.



True...this slipped my mind. I still can't say that I would want to pay for the site though. :shrug:
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Postby coyoteboy » Thu Feb 08, 2007 2:14 pm

Of course, no-one wants to pay for it :D Not for freely donated information. The thing people (like the OP) miss is that you dont really pay for the info/forums on most club sites,you pay for membership to a club and all the gubbins that go with it. Its not like those clubs are stealing the info and charging for it - if its already out there on the 'net they can do what they like for it. Locking it away and charging for it will just make more people start again and launch another free site and the circle starts again - its stupid.
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Postby Flyin' Bryan » Sat Feb 10, 2007 7:05 am

killer_siller wrote:there was a guy on here that was taking stickies, and write-ups, and posting them up on what could have been considered a wiki. i can't remember what his name was, or what the name of the "wiki" was, but it was going REALLY well for a while, and i haven't heard anything of it in a little bit. it was named AT** as in all-trac something-something. like all-trac info archive, or something stupid like that. anyone remember it?

i DEFINATELY want to know what happened to it.


IIRC that was David (Coding Paradox) and it was called Trac-Faq. Sadly there is nothing left of it.

http://web.archive.org/web/20050428175307/tracfaq.nw-celica.com/wiki/run.php?iRequest=wiki/ViewPage <- Internet archive
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Postby alltrac.net » Fri Feb 16, 2007 6:45 am

Ever since the beginning, I always wanted the website to be free and informative.

Back before forums were wildly popular, I would spend hours making write up web pages with pics and putting them on the public domain. We are all here to help each other.

Some forums try to "hide" information, which I have always hated. Ever found an informative link through google, only to be hit with a registration page? OUCH!

Would you really want someone to register just to answer a burning question? If you don't want to help people, that is no problem, because there are always other people willing to do so.
ST165, then ST165, then ST185, then ST165.

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Postby coyoteboy » Fri Feb 16, 2007 9:41 am

well said.
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Postby Stubble » Tue Feb 20, 2007 2:26 am

First, 3 cheers for Robert for keeping this site going all these years.

Second, gt4oc.co.uk privatised a couple of years ago. Here is the post I dug up from Dennis Heath (for those that don't know, one of the original alltrac pioneers. Check out his website too). This is from the gt4 mailing list on yahoogroups. Basically, it all started when Dennis realized that gt4oc.com was charging new members 20 quid to join. This is after it had been free for many years. His concern is that he posted to that site frequently, and received/receives nothing in return, with nothing asked for.
---------------------

Now that really bugs me, and I mean really!!! I don't mean to sound
conceited, but I put a LOT of info onto the web through my site and
mailing lists. I was a guinea pig sooo many times I can't count, and to
this day I have not made a single dime on any of the info I shared. Now
let's throw in all the other names who have been pioneers and freely
shared info over the years.............is gt4oc gonna give me or them a
cut of the loot?!?!

I think we need to set an exmaple here. If gt4oc thrives, then this will
spread like a disease (which is good way to describe charging for
something you don't even provide!) Right now there are a few GT4 forums,
so imagine if everyone charged U.S. $35.00. Just between the gt4 list,
gt4 v2.0, alltrac.net, and gt4oc, that's a nice U.S. $140.00 you have to
shell out for 'maybe' getting the info you want, cause I'm willing to
bet that gt4oc is NOT giving you a garuntee that you WILL get an answer
to any gt4 related question. Jeez, I'm now on 12 WRX related forums, I'd
have to shell out U.S. $420.00 if they all charged that amount.

Bottom line, if you don't want to end up having to pay to be on every
forum, you NEED to boycott the ones that charge. Don't feed the monster
and it will die!! Remember people, this isn't coming from someone who
hasn't ever contributed to the gt4 community, so hopefully it will mean
something.

Dennis
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Postby coyoteboy » Tue Feb 20, 2007 8:44 am

Yes, but yet again I'll point out that the OC charges what it costs to run the events and membership recording costs plus a little spare to cover people never turning up to events when they say they will - its not just a forum/website - you cant make that simplification. There were big arguments over this only last year, people wanting publication of the accounts etc to see where their money went. In all honesty I couldnt be bothered checking through it with a fine toothed comb but it looked above board and their point was that a HUGE % of their cash went on paying for cancelled events because loads put their name down and then everyone backed out after it was booked. They werent really charging for the forums and still provide forum space for chatter and discussion even when you dont have full membership.
The thing they were also wary of was "newbies" coming in, reading all the info, asking 400 questions then just going away - there was a brain drain, and when the more knowledgeable people got new cars and dissappeared there was no-one left with enough commitment to keep it all together. The UK GT4 contingent is very small and all such problems are amplified in a small group.

I see both sides perfectly clearly but I disagree with Dennis' feeling that it was being done just to make money, and i disagree with charging for access to freely given knowledge.

Still no-one's added free info to my wiki :D
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Postby Gary » Tue Feb 20, 2007 12:52 pm

coyoteboy wrote:Yes, but yet again I'll point out that the OC charges what it costs to run the events and membership recording costs plus a little spare to cover people never turning up to events when they say they will - its not just a forum/website - you cant make that simplification. There were big arguments over this only last year, people wanting publication of the accounts etc to see where their money went. In all honesty I couldnt be bothered checking through it with a fine toothed comb but it looked above board and their point was that a HUGE % of their cash went on paying for cancelled events because loads put their name down and then everyone backed out after it was booked. They werent really charging for the forums and still provide forum space for chatter and discussion even when you dont have full membership.
The thing they were also wary of was "newbies" coming in, reading all the info, asking 400 questions then just going away - there was a brain drain, and when the more knowledgeable people got new cars and dissappeared there was no-one left with enough commitment to keep it all together. The UK GT4 contingent is very small and all such problems are amplified in a small group.

I see both sides perfectly clearly but I disagree with Dennis' feeling that it was being done just to make money, and i disagree with charging for access to freely given knowledge.

Still no-one's added free info to my wiki :D

Well, there are many GT4 owners that will never be able to attend their meeting due to geographical constraint.
Still, the fee applies to everyone no matter where they live.
So, that is not a really good excuse.

AT.net and GT4 mailing lists have been up for years, free of charge.
People come and go. Knowledge is still there.
Information you acquire from others for free should remain free to others.
Contribution should be voluntary.
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Postby coyoteboy » Tue Feb 20, 2007 1:05 pm

a) The club was a UK club, anyone within the UK could easily get to the events if they tried - no-one did, me included. If you're from abroad - either make the choice to pay or go elsewhere - its not like it was the ONLY place for the info. It wasnt an excuse, it was a reason - they need no excuse to charge for things that cost :shrug: And if you need access to info you know is on there specifically you can join and get 2 months IIRC free membership to all the forum areas. For me it was worth the £20 as the information on there was more accurate than anywhere else I looked, it and their discounts saved me more in parts costs in 3 months than the membership cost?

b) Yes there are free boards but IMO they have lower standards of technical knowledge and less retained knowledge than a dedicated, fee paying base. Still very very useful.

I look like I'm arguiing for privatisation, im not for the reason of not charging for something that was given freely - I'm just explaining why it is good. IF you were starting from scratch a fee based system would breed more dedicated followers and have more benefits. IF you're just looking for basic answers to basic questions then use free boards. People need a base of knowledge to work and progress from - with transient newbies who own the car for a year then bugger off all you get is that base level maintained, you dont get a dedicated owner decoding the ECU, writing full how-to's etc as often - that sort of thing.

But im still against it here, and I'm working to build up that base and expand on it with the wiki and my personal website. I dont charge for those, which should be a hint as to what i think ultimately.
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Postby silverarrow » Tue Feb 20, 2007 5:30 pm

I also say no just because everything should remain free and public. Thumbs up for Robert!!! What's the point of having a forum if you're going to make it private? Other sites quoting alltrac.net would just bring more traffic through here and publicity.
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Postby gt4tified » Wed Feb 21, 2007 11:35 am

Hmmmm, is the real issue here recognition or just a grouse? I think that the internet (albeit sadly in some cases) is a free-for-all and content management continues to be the single biggest problem for persons involved.

I use the internet to do 2 things, to communicate (like on at.net) and to research, whether for personal use or for my job. I do not plagiarize ppl's work and I never did this in my life, but if there's something there that's good know-how, I will download/bookmark it etc. for my use.

That's how I probably know 99% of what I know about the alltrac, from this site predominantly, and if the content ever goes private, I'd still pay to use it! :wink:

BTW, by privatizing the site, there's no guarantee that it will stop intellectual property theft, plagiarism etc.
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