Longivity of 3sgte engines under race conditions?

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Postby ___Scott___ » Sun Nov 29, 2009 9:17 pm

The stock pump should be fine, as long as it's not sucking air. The stock pan has baffles, they're just not good enough to keep the pump from sucking air during sustained high-g right hand sweepers.

As far as I know, a Moroso oil pan is the only alternative to the stock pan. Here is one thread on the Moroso pan:
http://alltrac.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php ... ght=moroso

You can search for "moroso" on the forum here and you'll find a little more info.
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Postby klue » Sun Nov 29, 2009 10:56 pm

stock pump blows hard. air or no air
if you have a pre92 3sgte your even worse off as they have the smallest pump. For racing conditions you NEED to upgrade the pump if you expect to have any longevity on the bearings. saying that you also need a extra qt or two in your pan to supply the oil.
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Postby jchealey » Mon Nov 30, 2009 2:33 am

So I also see from the link that a MR2 oil pan will also hold more oil and has better baffles. Nice, Back to the Pick and Pull.
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Postby RedCelicaTRD » Mon Nov 30, 2009 3:40 pm

Uhh, where did you get that from?
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Postby cozmic512 » Mon Nov 30, 2009 3:57 pm

he got that from the mr2oc forums I assume since he was directed there.

almost any motor you plan to race needs a modified oil pan. even if you are just going to do track days. You can make the baffles yourself and weld them into the stock pan to start. Just do a little research first to make sure you arent blocking anything, and keeping the oil around the pickup.
and then since you are modifying the pan anyway, you can install an accusump for an extra few quarts on standby.
I would also listen to the other opinions here about upgrading the oil pump, esp since you are rebuilding everything at this point. under braking you should have the same oil pressure as under acceleration.

and yes, blown motors are worth something. unless there is a hole in the side of it, or you detonated the cylinder so bad you cant hone it out, it is at least worth the knowledge of what not to do... :shrug:
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Postby Simba » Mon Nov 30, 2009 4:05 pm

Hokay--

First, the 165 3S is not worth spending money on. Start on a good 2nd gen block. There's no real benefit to a 3rd gen unless you find one for the same or less as a 2nd gen.

The following NEEDS to happen for an otherwise stock 3S to survive any kind of track use. This is for the engine only and does not account for the turbo, fuel system, anything with the driveline, etc.

- Biggest radiator you can fit in the car. Ron Davis makes the best option available.

- Large, baffled oil pan. The moroso pan works very well and is considerably cheaper than rolling a custom one, but you may need to do so depending on your application.

- 3 quart accusump. In the extremely rare cases you can run a moroso, or other properly baffled pan out of oil, it'll save the engine.

- Coolant reroute per the TTE spec. Eliminate the heater core, stock oil cooler, and if you're not running it in winter conditions the thermostat.

- Large, bar and plate air to air oil cooler. Alternatively, if you have the radiator to support it, you can use a larger air to water oil cooler, at the expense of more weight and plumbing.



The following is a VERY GOOD IDEA if you're going to track the car on tarmac with any kind of sustained high-G loading.

- Coolant swirl pot, replace belt driven water pump with electric.

- Fuel surge tank, ~1 gal capacity.

- Shim oil pump pressure valve ~1mm to increase pressure.


You do NOT need a dry sump unless you're building a ridiculous race application like a pikes peak car or something that will actually compete at a professional level, of which the AT doesn't qualify for anything I'm aware of.

If you absolutely, positively need a dry sump for your application, buy a 503. They're much easier to work with in that regard.

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Postby bridge47 » Mon Nov 30, 2009 6:42 pm

^^Listen here.

And FYI pre-luber, pre-oiler, would be = to accusump.
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Postby wakkjobb » Mon Nov 30, 2009 11:19 pm

I love Simba... seriously it's like he knows more than Gary!

I may have read wrong but is it possible/beneficial to use a 92+ oil pump on our older (165) engines?

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Postby sleeper » Wed Dec 02, 2009 5:19 pm

Simba: do you have a link to "TTE" spec cooling routing?
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Postby Simba » Wed Dec 02, 2009 8:35 pm

sleeper wrote:Simba: do you have a link to "TTE" spec cooling routing?


There's a simplified diagram in this thread.

In a nutshell: Bypass the throttle body coolant lines, cap the heater core lines, remove/bypass WTA oil cooler, swirl pot between the water neck and radiator, large pressurized header tank, thermostat replaced with restrictor plate, stock pump replaced with electric pump.

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Postby lumbercis » Wed Dec 02, 2009 9:58 pm

OP still hasn't stated what type/level of racing he is doing. Simba's suggestions sound to me like what I would do if I was building a serious dedicated track car.

For all we know, the OP is just doing a track day a couple times a year.
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Postby ___Scott___ » Thu Dec 03, 2009 4:25 am

lumbercis wrote:For all we know, the OP is just doing a track day a couple times a year.

That's the impression I had, thus my assertion that the stock oil pump should be fine as long as it's not sucking air. That also assumes he is running good oil.
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Postby Simba » Thu Dec 03, 2009 2:43 pm

For track day usage, you still want as big a rad as you can get, a baffled, large oil pan, and an accusump. Anything less stands a good chance of popping it.

It's also an extremely good idea to cap the throttle body coolant lines if running on pump gas and look into a better oil cooler.

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Postby cozmic512 » Thu Dec 03, 2009 8:53 pm

right on Simba.
there are a lot of motors out there, the bmw s14 for one that will blow up if you dont have an oil pan baffle the first time you run it through a long right hand sweeper.

A def must for any track use AT ALL are those three things, esp for anything turbo'ed. A good cooling system is huge, and I agree, run it through as few things as possible. but even for a race car, I would try to keep the heater core for rainy days. Yea the old palmolive on the inside of the window works wonders, but a good defroster helps a lot too. Learned that the hard way when I ran through a puddle and soaked the inside of my windshield...
if you dont have a good oil cooler, you at least want a gauge
and a good idea is to have a properly mounted fire system.
as Simba said earlier.
especially with all the fire issues we have seen lately.
cant be too careful with fire...
regards,
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Postby Redrkt01 » Tue Dec 15, 2009 2:35 pm

Simba wrote:For track day usage, you still want as big a rad as you can get, a baffled, large oil pan, and an accusump. Anything less stands a good chance of popping it.

It's also an extremely good idea to cap the throttle body coolant lines if running on pump gas and look into a better oil cooler.


Enlighten me about the TB coolant line. Why cap it?
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