The ST165/ST185/ST205 4WD systems are really FWD? Weigh in!

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Re: The ST165/ST185/ST205 4WD systems are really FWD? Weigh

Postby athousandleaves » Sat Sep 29, 2012 9:10 pm

Luke can you give some numbers for total engine torque vs the torque measured at each wheel?

For example:
    were you seeing 50ft-lbs @ each wheel when engine tq is 200-220ft-lbs
    or
    were you seeing 200-220ft-lbs @ each wheel while engine tq is 200-220ft-lbs
    or
    were you seeing 100ft-lbs @ each axle while the engine tq is 200-220ft-lbs


I don't have much dyno experience so I wouldnt be able to comment on how the system is integrating the sensors but I would find it strange if you were actually seeing the full crank power on each wheel.


Might have to give me some more time on the videos, I'm really busy with work right now.
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Re: The ST165/ST185/ST205 4WD systems are really FWD? Weigh

Postby klue » Sun Sep 30, 2012 12:22 am

Redrkt01 wrote:
klue wrote:thoughts?




Edit: Just wanted to add one thing about how we refer to the torque split. I don't think that referring to the torque split as 50/50 runs counter to saying that torque is equal at all wheels. Considering what phattyduck outlined regarding how much power can be sent through the open diffs I liken the 50/50 split to a ratio. Seen as 50:50 it can then be reduced to 1:1, meaning just as much goes to the rear as the front and vice versa. Of course, I am getting sleepy and that might have been a big mental belly flop. :twisted:





Yes exactly! I'm like playing devils advocate, its bringing out the goods in this topic. saying we are splitting torque does not actually work like that. Power in the drive train is never reduced to any wheel unless its slipping. To further that, a wheel can only ever have as much torque as the final drive delivers it wont it does not stack on top if anyone is thinking along those lines.


Andrew, the toque we see on the dyno is measured at each of the four wheels. The measurement is equal to the the total torque/horsepower output. So if its 200ftlbs at the front left wheel, its the same out put at every other wheel, and the same as the total output. This output is measured at the hub on the dynapack, so we should see a good percentage more at the crank considering each wheel is accounting for the losses of all the other ones in the drive train.
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Re: The ST165/ST185/ST205 4WD systems are really FWD? Weigh

Postby Redrkt01 » Sun Sep 30, 2012 1:54 am

Luke, are we in agreement? I lost you when you said you were playing devil's advocate....
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Re: The ST165/ST185/ST205 4WD systems are really FWD? Weigh

Postby phattyduck » Thu Oct 11, 2012 4:58 pm

klue wrote:Yea thats what we use a dynapak (hub type 4 separate pods), torque is the same on each wheel. Which is why I was saying that toque is 100% each wheel

thoughts?
You are getting the same torque at each wheel, yes. Now imagine 3 of the 4 hubs now have no resistance... what would the torque output be at that 4th hub?

If 3 open diffs, you get no torque - the last hub gets the same torque that each of the other 3 can put down - thus the "50/50" split. Each wheel has to apply the same torque.
If 3 full-locking diffs, you get full torque at that last hub with 'traction' - thus 100% transfer of power to that last hub.

Those are the two edge cases - everything else is in between those two.

So, if the resistance to movement at each hub is the same, they will all put down the same torque/horsepower no matter the diff setup. Once there is differing traction between wheels/hubs, things get complicated.

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Re: The ST165/ST185/ST205 4WD systems are really FWD? Weigh

Postby klue » Thu Oct 11, 2012 8:43 pm

phattyduck wrote:
So, if the resistance to movement at each hub is the same, they will all put down the same torque/horsepower no matter the diff setup. Once there is differing traction between wheels/hubs, things get complicated.

-Charlie



yea that pretty much sums up the whole thread lol

Yes redrkt01 we are in the same boat, i think everyone else is too

We could play around with this on the dyno, I know we can apply load to the hubs individually and see what happens with the output. This would be the best way to test the system.

Who wants to pay for the dyno time, ill donate my car lol
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Re: The ST165/ST185/ST205 4WD systems are really FWD? Weigh

Postby Sluice Box Hero » Sun Aug 11, 2013 11:41 pm

Rpz123isme wrote:Put front end on stands and leave the back on the ground. Get in and fire it up and put it in gear and let go of the clutch at 6k with your buddy in front of the car. And if he is right then no harm done. If he is high as a kite then he will learn a lesson......lol :D



ok, so i did this today, not clutch drop at 6k, but i did get the car to 5k. and nothing, the front end spun and the rear just sat there.

if i put the rear on stands and start to pull the car forward the car pulls itself off the jack stands. this proves to me that it is a fwd car with a tag along rear axle.

now, where can i have this viscous couple rebuilt??? mine obviously is done.
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Re: The ST165/ST185/ST205 4WD systems are really FWD? Weigh

Postby athousandleaves » Mon Aug 12, 2013 2:43 am

Perhaps you should double check the position of the drive selector switch on the transmission before jumping the gun and ripping into your trans?

Would really suck if someone left it in FWD for a few years...
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Re: The ST165/ST185/ST205 4WD systems are really FWD? Weigh

Postby Sluice Box Hero » Mon Aug 12, 2013 3:02 am

US spec st165......they were all viscous. My guess, at 197k miles (328k km) its just worn out.
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Re: The ST165/ST185/ST205 4WD systems are really FWD? Weigh

Postby CMS-GT4 » Mon Aug 12, 2013 3:23 am

That could be the case. Without the viscous locker operating, its just an open diff all around.
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Re: The ST165/ST185/ST205 4WD systems are really FWD? Weigh

Postby athousandleaves » Mon Aug 12, 2013 4:08 am

I'm not referring to the early JDM manual drive select switch from inside the car, I'm talking about the one that is ON the transmission... Only supposed to be used on the dyno...please don't make me dig up the BGB page :doh:


Edit
Can we move this to an emergency help thread to keep from cluttering up this one?
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Re: The ST165/ST185/ST205 4WD systems are really FWD? Weigh

Postby Sluice Box Hero » Mon Aug 12, 2013 11:53 am

Whoa!!!!

There's a switch on the transmission??? Please PM info on this. I would appreciate it greatly!!
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Re: The ST165/ST185/ST205 4WD systems are really FWD? Weigh

Postby sinerasis » Mon Aug 12, 2013 3:17 pm

It's in the repair manual, a simple Google search will allow you to download it. It has all the info you need to do just about anything to these cars.

IN-7 is where it starts.

http://gt4.mwp.id.au/
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Re: The ST165/ST185/ST205 4WD systems are really FWD? Weigh

Postby Theman88b » Mon Aug 12, 2013 6:26 pm

Yeah there is a little lever on the RH lower side of the transmission. The lever has a bolt going through it to hold it in place. Has three positions; fwd, neutral, awd. I believe same location as the button style 4wd acuator was. Check that first before you change out the viscous coupler.
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Re: The ST165/ST185/ST205 4WD systems are really FWD? Weigh

Postby phattyduck » Mon Aug 12, 2013 7:55 pm

Sluice Box Hero wrote:ok, so i did this today, not clutch drop at 6k, but i did get the car to 5k. and nothing, the front end spun and the rear just sat there.

if i put the rear on stands and start to pull the car forward the car pulls itself off the jack stands. this proves to me that it is a fwd car with a tag along rear axle.

now, where can i have this viscous couple rebuilt??? mine obviously is done.
Doesn't prove anything. If your viscous coupler is not working, the car wouldn't move in either case - the 'off the ground' wheels would spin front or rear.

Fix that selector switch...

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Re: The ST165/ST185/ST205 4WD systems are really FWD? Weigh

Postby Sluice Box Hero » Mon Aug 12, 2013 8:53 pm

switch is in the correct place. guess the coupler is worn out.
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