How much effort and cost goes into making an st185 fast?

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Re: How much effort and cost goes into making an st185 fast?

Postby gt4tified » Tue Jun 25, 2013 5:35 pm

Fast is, as said, a subjective term. If you don't care for handling or safety.....buy a CT20b and a FCD, turn up boost to 17psi and drive it until it blows.

A fast car on a well build platform that handles and stops equally as well, takes a lot of time and money.
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Re: How much effort and cost goes into making an st185 fast?

Postby ___Scott___ » Tue Jun 25, 2013 7:21 pm

ellover009 wrote:I would say fast is anything under 5 1/2 -6 sec 0-60 acceleration.
anything under 5 sec is really fast.

Hmmm... My wifes Z4 supposedly does 0-60 in 4.5 seconds (never tried to verify that) and I never considered it to be "fast." :lol:

By seat-of-the-pants impression, my Camaro is way faster.
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Re: How much effort and cost goes into making an st185 fast?

Postby smog7 » Tue Jul 02, 2013 2:08 am

Be prepared to pour money into whichever alltrac you buy.

Z4 0-60 in 4.5???

R34 gtr's do it in about 5.0
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Re: How much effort and cost goes into making an st185 fast?

Postby ___Scott___ » Tue Sep 10, 2013 8:41 pm

smog7 wrote:Z4 0-60 in 4.5???

R34 gtr's do it in about 5.0

I don´t remember where I read 4.5, but a quick search shows this site claiming
http://www.zeroto60times.com/BMW-Bimmer-0-60-mph-Times.html
¨2006 BMW Z4 M Roadster 0-60 mph 4.7 Quarter mile 13.2¨

and Car and Driver test results claim 4.6:
http://media.caranddriver.com/files/2006-bmw-z4-m-roadster2006-bmw-z4-m-roadster-specs.pdf

Some forum posts among Z4 enthusiasts are claiming 4.5, but those may not be credible.
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Re: How much effort and cost goes into making an st185 fast?

Postby underscore » Tue Sep 10, 2013 8:54 pm

smog7 wrote:Be prepared to pour money into whichever alltrac you buy.

Z4 0-60 in 4.5???

R34 gtr's do it in about 5.0


R35 GTR does it in 3.2, R34 GTR is about 4.5, but I'm pretty sure that's with the restrictor pill still in.
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Re: How much effort and cost goes into making an st185 fast?

Postby gtfourmansd » Tue Sep 17, 2013 8:16 pm

This is what i have always worried about and each time i have gone to buy an alltrac i stop and think about getting something else. I read the threads and take in the info and all i take from it is that the alltrac is a cow/money pit that must be built (internals) in order to get into that 400 hp range. I always found it hard to accept because to me the 3sgte was always one of the legendary 4cyl motors. The st205 is my favorite car and the Mark II mr2 is a car i have always wanted to own. I am in the market for a new (to me) toy and the three cars i have been looking at are the st185 the mr2 and the eclipse gsx. You guys say the car is so heavy but it weighs 200 lbs less than the gsx and they are crowned some of the fastest 4cyl around. I understand the 4g63 has more options when it comes to aftermarket support. But isnt power about un restricting the exhaust,turning up the boost, and getting the safe amount of air, fuel, spark, and timing? Are you guys saying that the 3sgte gen 2 does not get near the same amount of gains bolt on for bolt on as other turbo 4s? At the moment from what i am reading most of you would say i am better off buying the DSM because it would give me better returns on what i spend on it. I am confused about this because i have always grouped the two in similar categories.
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Re: How much effort and cost goes into making an st185 fast?

Postby underscore » Tue Sep 17, 2013 9:05 pm

To me there really isn't much difference between one old turbo platform and another, the further you push it from stock the more likely you are to break worn out old parts. Any old turbo car can become a money pit depending on what you do with it, so you're better off picking a platform you love so when the car gives you grief you don't get frustrated and give up.
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Re: How much effort and cost goes into making an st185 fast?

Postby mike325ci » Tue Sep 17, 2013 9:20 pm

agree-- dsm or alltrac, they are old cars... pretty much the same issues. take care of bringing car up to maintenance, and then mod. if you do it in reverse, things will break and you will spend more time not driving than driving. again, it applies to all old cars. which is why i come back to my first point: you really have to like these cars to begin with. your heart has to be there, otherwise your mind knows that there are much more rational, economical choices out there. your head is the one asking, "why put $30K into an old car when you can get a almost-new modern car for the same money and go faster and be more reliable?"

personally, i can count maybe in one hand new/modern cars that i like and would like to drive/own. the list of older cars i like is probably a few pages long.
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Re: How much effort and cost goes into making an st185 fast?

Postby mx6er2587 » Tue Sep 17, 2013 9:31 pm

^This


You will find more big power builds on the DSM forums simply because its a larger community. The path to those big power numbers is a bit more well defined, but in the end building a reliable high horsepower car on early 90's technology comes at a price; a price that in large part is independent of which platform you choose.
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Re: How much effort and cost goes into making an st185 fast?

Postby gtfourmansd » Tue Sep 17, 2013 9:52 pm

Well for me i'm not in a position where financing a car is a viable option and i am impatient when it comes to saving money especially the amount it would take to pay a new car off. So for me buying an older car is the way to go and if i ended up investing a large amount of money into a car over time so what? At least that car was something tangible, i could drive it and enjoy it mod by mod instead of staring at a number on a screen while i saved that money up. The newest car i have ever owned was a 2005 and i owned that in 2009. While i would someday like to finance a new car it would have to be something i would really like for me to pay for it and insurance every month and not mod it because of the warranty.

But that is a whole different thing i guess the point of my post was that in all the years i have lurked on this forum i have never committed to buying the alltrac. This is because from what i have read from all of the knowledgeable people on here the alltrac sounds more like a collectors car than a competitive one. So every time i go to buy a fun car and an alltrac is available it becomes more of a third car i would own someday if i had the money to instead of my weekend warrior that i could have fun with at the track both drag and auto x. Even on this thread some of the comments seem discouraging like hitting 400 crank hp is some kind of milestone. Thats why i brought up DSMs if you go to their forums they all swear like they have some of the fastest cars available even if it costs about the same to get into the 10s and 11s as i would think it would any turbo car from the 90s. So why not the 185?

TL;DR

Is the st 185 capable of the same things as a 2gb gsx for about the same if not a slightly larger amount of money when it comes to mods? If it is what is the problem? I dont consider that slow at all. Oh and reasonably i am happy with 350 to 400 whp especially when the car itself looks good.
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Re: How much effort and cost goes into making an st185 fast?

Postby underscore » Wed Sep 18, 2013 3:25 am

gtfourmansd wrote:Thats why i brought up DSMs if you go to their forums they all swear like they have some of the fastest cars available even if it costs about the same to get into the 10s and 11s as i would think it would any turbo car from the 90s.


That's cause they're full of it. Kinda like 9/10 Subaru STi owners with an intake, exhaust and Cobb Access Port thinks they have the fastest car on earth.

You haven't stated a budget of any kind so it's hard to tell what you'll be okay with, I can tell you what I've spent on my car thus far but I've mostly done suspension/braking work and repairs so I really can't provide much insite into the costs of power mods. I can tell you though that the basic cost of the parts needed for any car are going to be about the same, pistons/rods/fuel pumps/turbos/clutches/cams/coilovers/standalones/etc are all damn near the same price for any car.
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Re: How much effort and cost goes into making an st185 fast?

Postby GT4times2 » Wed Sep 18, 2013 3:44 am

gtfourmansd wrote:
Is the st 185 capable of the same things as a 2gb gsx for about the same if not a slightly larger amount of money when it comes to mods? If it is what is the problem? I dont consider that slow at all. Oh and reasonably i am happy with 350 to 400 whp especially when the car itself looks good.



I'd say it is just as capable, if not a better built motor from the factory (speaking of the 3SGTE). The big difference between these two communities imho is:

1. The DSM community is much larger. More parts available/More tuners messing with the platform. More examples at the track and on the road. All Trac is the opposite. Smaller community/Less tuners, less competition= Less results. How many All Tracs do we have in the 12s-11s? Not many. DSMs plenty.

However, I do agree with overall prices/money spent on mods to be about the same. Turbos cost the same, EMS, Fuel Systems, Cams, internals cost about the same. Sourcing tuners to put it all together and make things work is where the DSM communitiy has the edge.

I for one don't believe the 3SGTEs cost a fortune to make fast (speaking of 350-400 hp). Anything in the 650+ whp will cost some money.
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Re: How much effort and cost goes into making an st185 fast?

Postby Lamont » Wed Sep 18, 2013 11:54 am

I think one thing people overlook is the amount of posers in a community. Here we have very few whereas in other communities I am certain that the poser number is way higher. Anyone can claim to have an 11-10 second quarter mile beast and when the production numbers of the vehicle in question is 10 to 1 compared to how few alltrac/GT Fours where produced our poser population is way smaller. I for one don't think the hp number is the only thing that makes a fast car. I think one of the fastest vehicles can have relatively small overall hp like the MX5 FR-S & BRZ, all around 200hp, but make up for it in power to weight ratio and most importantly handling. No since in having a 700hp car when the usable horsepower number is way lower. I can spend 15K building a motor to go in a car that handles like a pig and then another 15K trying to beef up a chassis that can make this power usable. Or I can spend a few thousand making a car that handles great and then a few more thousand increasing the hp until I find a balance of hp and handling that makes a car fun to drive. Not only fast in a straight line, but fast around and through a corner which to me makes the balance the most important thing. Don't believe me look at the Porsche 911 never has it had the most hp as far as sports cars go, but find me a car that does everything better or faster and I bet its a purpose built race car that costs several times the amount of a production 911. Just my .02 :P :P
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Re: How much effort and cost goes into making an st185 fast?

Postby gtfourmansd » Wed Sep 18, 2013 4:13 pm

I think my number one fear is getting into a platform with no options to make any power. I remember back when i had my 6th gen celica and i was just learning about cars the only options were to either swap in a 3s which seemed like an impossible task with my knowledge and the fact that i live in CA. Or build your own turbo kit which was also a crappy option.
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Re: How much effort and cost goes into making an st185 fast?

Postby underscore » Wed Sep 18, 2013 4:29 pm

If you're worried about swapping a 3S then I don't think you'd be able to push any platform much past stock unless you don't mind paying a shop to do the work, or if you're willing to push outside of your comfort zone. In the end it's all just nuts and bolts with a bit of wire here and there, a 5SFE doesn't have a lot of aftermarket support but the 3SGTE does, if you're worried about power there are members here making 1000AWHP+
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