Thinking about selling my project 93 (Not for sale post)

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Re: Thinking about selling my project 93 (Not for sale post)

Postby WarTowels » Thu Sep 11, 2014 6:57 pm

Thanks everyone for the great replies. I knew posting this here I would hear mostly 'keep it's' (duh!) but maybe that's what I needed to hear. I think I'm going to build a shed for it so it can slumber since that won't cost me much beyond time and a small dollar investment and then I can keep it as long as I need.

I definitely thought this was my forever car for many years, but sometimes things change. I think it may have for me, I'm not sure anymore. I could live with selling it I think, but while I may not feel like it's my "forever" car, I still love it a ton and could still see myself finishing it someday.
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Re: Thinking about selling my project 93 (Not for sale post)

Postby mike325ci » Thu Dec 11, 2014 7:22 pm

I like this discussion... It's not only about the AllTrac specifically, but it's true for all car enthusiasts. I love that story about your father and his Capri... I guess we don't share these stories more often than we should... A car is just some metal and plastic and rubber put together. But there is always a story or emotion attached to it that makes it bigger than the sum of its parts... If you don't understand, you won't. But if you do, this sort of stuff resonates deeply...

So back to your question: I got my '92 ST185 in 2003, so it's been almost 12 years now. I think it's the longest time I've held on to the same car. I'm almost 40 now. Lots of things have happened in life since 2003. I believe I thought of selling the car twice in that timeframe. But couldn't get myself to do it, because I knew deep down that I would regret it so much and would have such a hard time trying to find another one similar to it. So when my car collection went from a peak of 8 cars to 1, it was the only car that survived the sell-off... My BMW E46, after 10 years, I sold it. It was 50/50 whether to keep that and sell the Celica at that time. From time to time, I should have not sold it, or kept both-- I get that thought when my Celica gives me troubles and I can't drive it (the BMW was super reliable, 25k miles over 10 years I've had it). But when the Celica is working and I get to drive it, I am happy about my decision...

Other cars I have less emotional attachment to, for whatever reason, even though I love them and would have loved to have kept them: my '88 ST165 or my '07 Lotus Exige S or hell even my Previa AllTrac S/C... So that's when I know I made the right decision... As someone said, I guess this is my "forever car"-- either that or the AW11 MR2... Which is the previous car that I've had for 8 years and really missed when I sold it to get my Lotus... So earlier this year, I bought another '86 MR2. I justified it because they are cheap fun cars that doesn't really put a big dent into my finances while having a great time at the track/autocross... Plus doing autocross/track on my AllTrac was putting more wear/tear on the car that is so hard to fix and work on (lack of time and space), so it was good to have a dedicated car just for that. (Unfortunately, I got rear-ended in July on the way back from a track day weekend; so the MR2 is totaled; but I managed to find an exact same year/color car to replace it, which I bought last month...). So I guess maybe these 2 cars are my forever cars...

After we sold our house with the 3-car garage and huge driveway where I kept my cars, I didn't have any place to put them. That's when I sold everything but the Celica... So I know where you're coming from... Luckily, my sister bought a house shortly thereafter and was kind enough to let me park my car at her place... Otherwise, I probably couldn't make it work, since I live in Manhattan (New York City) where parking costs more than what the average American pays for rent ($700-1000/month in my neighborhood for parking). So I can't do any major work on it, which is why my "project" goals for it are not as far-reaching as the rest of you...

Which bring me to the other point... When you have goals that are very hard to attain, it can discourage you... So it's better to just lower it, or do them in baby steps, so you can complete it, drive/enjoy the car, then do the next step... Otherwise it just gets overwhelming and you give up and end up selling the car in pieces... We know this happens all the time in the enthusiast community... And it's mostly due to this type of goal expectations management... Keep it realistic... Everyone's situation is different. Just because ABC was able to build this awesome 800rwhp Celica doesn't mean you can or should-- maybe he has more money, more time, more space, more skills, more dedication, less things going on in his life (no kids, no wife, whatever...)... You know yourself the best. Set realistic goals for yourself...

And so whatever you do, don't sell it... If you know it's your forever car. :) Because in 10 years or 20 years, when you try to find another ST185 that you still talk about and long for--- there are that much fewer examples around and it will never be the exact same car that you used to have...
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Re: Thinking about selling my project 93 (Not for sale post)

Postby MacGyver » Fri Dec 12, 2014 12:39 am

I was in the same boat for a while. Bought mine in 04 right after finishing high school. No house, no garage and it was in pretty rough shape. Over the last 10 years it spent most of its time in a storage garage for about $200 a month. It was silly but I would go "visit" her even when there wasn't any work I could do to it. Over the last year I got a house with a garage and moved her in. Stripped it and started working on it. The feeling was unbelievable. For ten years I dreamed of this car. Meticulously planning every part and mod and which steps to do first. Now over those ten years money was really tight (when isnt it) and I had the same thoughts. I would scour this site for motivation and reasons to keep it. In the end the number of these cars drops every day. And I have one. Actually almost two if you count all my parts and pieces. Here we are almost 11 years later and I haven't gotten to drive my dream car yet but I'm getting really close. It seems like an alright idea now selling the car but you have the same passion for them as I do. And after you're done traveling and with the things going on in your life now you will get the itch again. It never goes away completely. And then you will have to start all over again, if you can still find one. Me, I already have plans to be buried in mine. Saves the cost of a caske! Good luck with your decision. It's been a pleasure reading your posts.
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Re: Thinking about selling my project 93 (Not for sale post)

Postby freddie » Fri Dec 12, 2014 1:18 am

Men need dreams. It is very important to all of us on this planet to have dreams. Dreams lead to goals for us to achieve.
One such goal for all of us on this forum is our cars. Our cars, our project will never end, there is always something to do and that is because we like it, we get enjoyment from it. If we don't sell it and move on to something else that will give you pleasure.

Towels. you sell this car and it is the end of your dream. Wrap the car up in plastic, store it away, it doesn't matter what state the car is in, your dream stays alive.

Another of my dreams is to win lotteries. If I did, would I go and buy that Ferrari? Hell no. I would get my Celica and strip it bare and start from scratch build that Celica I always dreamed of.

Cheers
Freddie

PS. A nightmare on the other hand is having to work on your damm car because you have to drive it to work tomorrow.
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Re: Thinking about selling my project 93 (Not for sale post)

Postby FC Zach » Fri Dec 12, 2014 6:30 am

freddie wrote:PS. A nightmare on the other hand is having to work on your damm car because you have to drive it to work tomorrow.


This made me chuckle! Very true! I purchased my dream car (well actually it was a 6th gen GTFour) and purchased it to daily drive. I'm dealing with the headache of maintaining two 20+ year old cars. I luckily have a very generous father who has let me borrow his trash hauling GMC pickup, AKA The Brown Bomber.
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Re: Thinking about selling my project 93 (Not for sale post)

Postby DeeCee » Wed Dec 17, 2014 8:49 am

Sorry I haven't responded to your thread Greg. I don't come into this area of the board very often.

This a pretty good discussion, and much that has been said, I can echo easily. 7.5 years into a project with the car undriveable and off the road for the entire time. Parts in boxes, cupboards, under the bed, in the wardrobe, hanging off walls, in storage containers - you know I live the 'dream' and you know I have a vision which we discussed when you visited me here in NZ.

But as I have been waiting for my panel beater to finish the exterior of the car for me, I have had time to reflect on what I have achieved so far and potentially what the next challenge for me could be and I feel I've made some interesting observations, which I will share.

If you are passionate about the car, then it will always remain with you in some form or another. There may be some sort of emotional attachment in the way of family, idolisation as a child or in your teenage years, your first driving experience etc. No matter what, you can't shake it off - it is a part of your being and soul. If you look at your car that way, then you're unlikely to get rid of it and will absolutely make it work out for you are in a situation when you can make something of it.

If you're keeping it because you predominantly have a financial investment in it rather than the emotional, then the addage is: let your profits run, cut your losses short. Cars come and go, there will always be opportunities in the future to get the car of your dreams when you are more financially sound or in a more appropriate situation to enjoy your dream. Which is why you see so many older people buy the cars of their dream much older in life when their situation allows for it.

For me, the predominant driver is to finish something that I started. To see the completion of my vision and get the opportunity to drive it and enjoy the labour that I have put in. My passion is only derived from the fact that I have invested so much of my time and energy into something, that it would be a huge disappointment to myself not to see it to the bitter end. I ignore those that don't understand this and am luckily supported by friends and family who understand my need to see it finished. Note, I had no prior emotional attachment to this car, nor cars in general before I started working on this car. It is a life lesson and project for me, and what I have experienced serves me will in the application of life.

From my perspective, you have those that do do and those that don't do. Your current life situation is not favourable to getting stuck in and working on your vision/dream. I can understand the crossroads you are in, as I have been at that point many times over the course of my project. Do I sell up and give up? Do I keep it on the possibility that I'll get to the end? Do I have the money, space, time to really invest in something that I have thought about, dreamed about, obsessed about for years and years?

If I had to re-visit some of my previous crossroads, then I would almost certainly reconsider some decisions and choices as my project has been drawn out far longer than it should. It has impacted me financially, socially and mentally. I don't socialise as much as I should, this project has stopped relationships from forming because of my obsession to finish what I have started, I have not taken opportunities to travel extensively or spend my money elsewhere for the simple fact I need to spend money and time to finish my car.

But I don't for a minute regret what I have done as it is part of my life lessons. I just wish I had made better decisions instead of learning my way through the car modification game. Sure, the information is out there, but very rarely will someone who is on a long term build really articulate the highs and lows of their experiences.

While I am in this to the bitter end, ultimately I wish that I had started with a car that I had a deeper passion for. Unfortunately while I am attached to the car, I look more to the next project which I can apply my lessons and experiences to. Current obsession is with 240z's. I have held back from buying 2 bare metal restoration 240z projects because I knew I had to finish the Celica before I took on something else to consume my time. Every fibre of my being says to not take on a car that requires lots of time and money, and just settle for a running car and some bolt on's but the perfectionist in me would demand I fix up stuff, which would ultimately mean that I would strip the car down and rebuild it. Chassis which flexes, no power steering, rust issues throughout the chassis etc etc. Something about a 240z drives me to want to have one, and there are many reasons why I shouldn't have one (i have a list of pros and cons and cons are far more than pros).

Honestly, if you have no deep emotional connection to the car, sell up and come back to your dream later when you are in a better situation to actually invest some time into it. You may decide that you want to take on a different dream or something that you are deeply passionate about, but it isn't any use to you if you are tied down to something that doesn't work for you in life. 3 years of not working on the car is something you need to address. Even MacGyver visited his car every so often to maitain the connection.

If you can afford to keep the dream on hold (in a dry area where there would be very little weathering - don't like the pallet shed in the forest due to moisture and ability for wind to get under those gaps at the bottom of the walls), then do it if you are passionate enough about the car. Don't think about the financial investment. It really comes down to your commitment to maintain and ultimately complete your vision vs the money. Money comes and goes, but if you want to make it happen, you will eventually make it happen.

If you do plan on keeping the car, then plan your vision to the nth degree in your free time. Make the decisions up front on what to buy, what you will need, how you will accomplish something, be it by yourself, with friends or through a shop. Plan your dream car with confidence and certainty and when it comes to build the car, then you will know exactly what to do, when to do it and how you will finish (make sure you plan activities concurrently instead of working in a linear way). While some of the fun is mucking around testing out things, it has cost me months and months of time before a decision was made - be it for financial reasons or some self imposed justification that it should be done a certain way that I know meets my expectations.

Do let us know what you decide to do. Would rather you be happy about making your decision for the right reasons instead of regreting what-if.

If you need to chat, happy to make the time on skype.

Cheers
Dave

PS - I'm about 40-45k in parts and labour to get to where I am at the moment, around 35k in tools and consumables and you know I do the majority of work myself. Works out to be around 7 - 10k a year to sustain my project and keep it pushing along. Some years are higher, some are lower, but I'm spending up now since I am so close to the end. I'm to the point where I don't look twice at the money to complete the vision..
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Re: Thinking about selling my project 93 (Not for sale post)

Postby Terracar » Mon Dec 22, 2014 10:47 pm

You know, I agree with DeeCee on this one. It really depends on what your attachment to the car.

You know, thinking back, I am not 100% sure what my attachment to my car is, but I can't seem to get rid of it.

I know I wanted an Alltrac as my dream car. While my dream car has changed, I still can't bring myself to part with it. Even as it sits covered in leaves and muck. I did go out and move it yesterday. Despite the fact it has 3 year old gas, the damn thing still purrs like a kitten.

I have its restoration broken down into small manageable pieces, but I have yet to actually do anything with those pieces. Chances are it will be a project that I work with on my son... he is currently two. I have a few years to go I guess.

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Re: Thinking about selling my project 93 (Not for sale post)

Postby GT4times2 » Tue Dec 23, 2014 4:28 am

All have very good points.

Most of us here have owned our cars for a while. Owning an Alltrac (most projects for that matter) is a game of patience, money (and a bunch of other lessons in between). Some may relate to what I'm about to say with these simplest words. "When you have time, you lack money. When you have money, you lack time". That's been part of my story with these cars. I've learned as I age to manage both wisely. I'm nearing 40, have kids (3 boys), a demanding/time consuming profession and a very busy life.

I've been where you all have been. I've sold Alltracs just to go out and buy another months later. (Coldiron/Josh and GT4 Dred can attest to that :P ). Hard to get out of the Alltrac game (They seem to be that "lifelong" car for me). I've owned 9 Alltracs total. I have a few I'm completing (madness I'm managing). I could have easily gone a different route and gotten one car that has a better aftermarket, will yield similar results (Horsepower) if not better in some cases and more than likely cost less in the process. Yet, I'm here persevering with Alltracs. No regrets either. To some who don't get it, it's down right lunacy to own more than one Alltrac.

I've also learned to set realistic goals and expectations for myself and my projects. Take your time, put down your plans on paper, and set timelines that are realistic. Alltracs are getting harder to come by, so hold on to it, if it means that much to you, and when you're ready go for it. To get some things done, source some talent to handle some aspects of your build (Body, interior, engine build).

Best of luck.
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Re: Thinking about selling my project 93 (Not for sale post)

Postby WarTowels » Sat Apr 25, 2015 8:11 pm

Hey guys, I feel terrible I just saw the last four to five posts JUST NOW. Thanks for taking the time to respond, all of you. Really appreciate it.

While I didn't get to read some of your posts in time...

Many of you will be pleased with the choices I have made.

I'm abandoning the pallet shed idea for now (although I totally think it would work fine if finished properly) and I've decided to spend some time in one spot again (before i hope to go do some more travelling!). I just signed a 10 month lease for a tiny apartment with a GIANT (for me at least) two car garage attached to it.

The Alltrac will be pulled out of storage for the first time in over two years and I'm going to resume working on it. My s2000 will get to hang out and watch.


In other news, I bought a winter beater several months ago and have been tinkering on it a bit learning about a new beast. I wanted something that was the polar opposite (or nearly) to drive than the s2000. It's a 1985 Mercedes 300TD Turbo Diesel Wagon. I lack any good pictures at the moment... my apologies.

I'll be moving to the new space May 1 and once I get things set up I think I will start a new Project thread for some moral support ^_^

-Greg
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Re: Thinking about selling my project 93 (Not for sale post)

Postby GT4times2 » Sun Apr 26, 2015 4:03 am

I'm telling you... Some of us must be drinking the same water (miles apart). I have been Googling early to mid 80s MB 230E, 280E, 300TD too (I was tempted to go out and source one). I had to talk myself out of the idea. I'm sure it would turn into a long restoration project as well. Funny, you got one.

Hope to see the car on the Projects page. I want to start 2 new threads soon, (on two of the three All Tracs. Total Lunacy).
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Re: Thinking about selling my project 93 (Not for sale post)

Postby WarTowels » Sun Apr 26, 2015 8:17 pm

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lol:
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Re: Thinking about selling my project 93 (Not for sale post)

Postby DeeCee » Mon Apr 27, 2015 3:29 am

Hey Greg, glad you have decided on a plan for your car. Looking forward to the progress. Feel free to lean :)
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Re: Thinking about selling my project 93 (Not for sale post)

Postby GT4times2 » Mon Apr 27, 2015 4:08 am

Haha, I love the tags. :D
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12 Toyota Sienna LE (The Daily Pacifier)
05 Toyota Avalon XLS
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88 ST165 Gen3-The works
89 ST165 Gen4-on the way
+ Many other projects, under covers....
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