Found a front LSD!!

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Found a front LSD!!

Postby BADNEWS » Sat Nov 10, 2012 5:54 pm

Ok John Frana of http://www.franavehicles.com/ has seen Pat's (alltrac101) Front and Center diff combo. After looking at it he said he would be able to design a front helical (AKA Quaife type) lsd and our choice of either a 4 spider center that still uses the Viscous Coupling Unit or a Torsen center that will eliminate the center viscous coupling unit. The design is still not final till we place an order and then he'll invest his time.

His diffs look like this: (this is one from a neon SRT-4)

Image

Image

His background is off road buggy racing and he has made gear sets for truck pulling that has 3000 ft/lbs of torque.

Here is a video of him getting interviewed:

http://youtu.be/FeVKe834teg?hd=1

I know myself and Pat (alltrac101) are in for the initial group purchase to get this going.

We need 3 more people that would be interested in having this done. Price est is $2500 total for 2 differentials (front and center). IMHO this is a steal for such a low volume purchase. Maybe if we're lucky and get more than the 5 total guys the price will go down. But I'm just hoping for a couple of you to be interested in this so we can get this developed.

Anyone interested?
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Last edited by BADNEWS on Sun Nov 11, 2012 12:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Found a front LSD!!

Postby underscore » Sat Nov 10, 2012 8:35 pm

I'm interested, but not for at least 6 months. Also is it possible to get just his front/center? Lastly, has he actually opened one up and measured, or just glanced at it? Because I know a few companies have looked at doing this and said they can't without a tonne of specialized tools.
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Re: Found a front LSD!!

Postby BADNEWS » Sat Nov 10, 2012 9:23 pm

underscore wrote:Also is it possible to get just his front/center?


The front/center is one whole unit. That is why it has to be both. So either you get the front/center lsds together or nothing. He said he can't make it just a front and use the factory center from Toyota.

underscore wrote:Lastly, has he actually opened one up and measured, or just glanced at it? Because I know a few companies have looked at doing this and said they can't without a tonne of specialized tools.


Yes he looked at it. He had one of Pat's (altrac101) transmissions. That is what he used to design his dogbox gear set for our transmissions. While designing the dogbox, Pat had John look into options for a front and center lsd. He stated that he took measurements of it and there is plenty of room to design something but he has to remake everything for it to work(nothing factory in the front/center can remain) except for the final drive ring gear that bolts to the center diff and the speedo gear. Like I said there is no final design because obviously he is not going to spend that kind of time into it until he knows that he can sell some units.
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Re: Found a front LSD!!

Postby Overtriped » Sat Nov 10, 2012 10:35 pm

What would the rear diff include? Like the guy b4 me I would love to throw down but I can't afford it. Not for a while.
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Re: Found a front LSD!!

Postby underscore » Sat Nov 10, 2012 10:55 pm

Sorry, I mean front/center as in one unit. To clarify:

rm2932 wrote:
underscore wrote:Also is it possible to get just his front/center?


The front/center is one whole unit. That is why it has to be both. So either you get the front/center lsds together or nothing. He said he can't make it just a front and use the factory center from Toyota.


rm2932 wrote:Price est is $2500 total for 2 differentials (front and rear).


So by front and rear do you mean front and center, or a front+center and rear?
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Re: Found a front LSD!!

Postby ZeroDrift » Sat Nov 10, 2012 11:24 pm

I am interested in this, but I am at least a year out.
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Re: Found a front LSD!!

Postby alltrac101 » Sat Nov 10, 2012 11:47 pm

Overtriped wrote:What would the rear diff include? Like the guy b4 me I would love to throw down but I can't afford it. Not for a while.


No rear, this is for whats inside the transmission only....
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Re: Found a front LSD!!

Postby alltrac101 » Sat Nov 10, 2012 11:48 pm

ZeroDrift wrote:I am interested in this, but I am at least a year out.

In all reality its a 6 month to year out
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Re: Found a front LSD!!

Postby athousandleaves » Sun Nov 11, 2012 3:58 am

By Front and Center I imagine he's making the case that the front diff sits in (the left side of the center diff) and the viscous unit will remain in place?

I can't imagine this not breaking without some sort of slip allowance in there.

I would be interested pending the 'streetablilty' of the setup, I still want to be able to drive my car on the roads and take it to track days without having to trailer it there.
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Re: Found a front LSD!!

Postby temperacerguy » Sun Nov 11, 2012 5:05 am

I would be in. But I am not going to finance his development on it... Meaning I am not going to send in $2500, and wait/see if something comes out of it.

If he builds it, and it performs as expected without breaking, I would buy it.
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Re: Found a front LSD!!

Postby lumbercis » Sun Nov 11, 2012 6:09 pm

^Usually in these situations a partial deposit is put down (a quarter or half) to finance materials and then the balance is due once the unit is done. That would be good info to know for this GB.

If you're waiting for a small shop to bear 100% of the material and development cost on a run of 5 and then hope to sell them after they're done you'll be waiting forever.

It is a ton of money though, so I understand your caution.
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Re: Found a front LSD!!

Postby BADNEWS » Sun Nov 11, 2012 6:38 pm

I was just seeing the interest in this (which is small). If people are interested, I'm willing to front my whole $2500 so others don't need to pay as much. But I'm sure we would need some sort of deposit. We would need something to bind people to the purchase. Otherwise, all we have is their word which they can back out on too easily.
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Re: Found a front LSD!!

Postby Spectra1 » Sun Nov 11, 2012 6:56 pm

Im in depending on how much of a deposit would be needed.
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Re: Found a front LSD!!

Postby lumbercis » Sun Nov 11, 2012 7:03 pm

....our choice of either a 4 spider center that still uses the Viscous Coupling Unit or a Torsen center that will eliminate the center viscous coupling unit.


Which one of these would hold up better to drag launches?

I did a little reading on the dsm forums and it seems like they use a 4-spider (or weld the center diff) and keep the VC unit (someone correct me if I'm wrong)?

Pat, what have you broken in the front? I'd like to hear more opinions on the relative benefits of the VC vs torsen.
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Re: Found a front LSD!!

Postby BADNEWS » Sun Nov 11, 2012 10:20 pm

lumbercis wrote:Which one of these would hold up better to drag launches?

I did a little reading on the dsm forums and it seems like they use a 4-spider (or weld the center diff) and keep the VC unit (someone correct me if I'm wrong)?


I've been doing research too. Quiafe only had issues with the talon/eclipse center lsd. I guess the problem was available space. The talon/eclipse Quiafe unit still hooks up and utilizes the factory viscous unit. They make units for Evo's with no problems.

http://forums.evolutionm.net/7463746-post14.html

Here is a 4 spider DSM diff on youtube that broke the case just like a Quaife:
http://youtu.be/P5Ib6wDKeMw

Effective June 15, 2001, Quaife America will no longer replace broken differential housings on 76.309.155 (9B1) Center Differentials at no charge.

We have found that, due to design constraints of the transmission, the original equipment third gear that meshes with the center diff housing is prone to failure under extreme loading in modified vehicles. When this gear fails, it may cause the gear teeth ground on the Quaife housing to break, necessitating replacement. The Quaife Center Differential made for the Mitsubishi Eclipse/Talon AWD Turbo models are built from very high strength, case hardened material. However, even the superior construction of the Quaife Differential may fail under these situations, under no fault of the Quaife product.

Since this type of failure is not a fault of the Quaife product, we will not replace a broken housing that is due to this type of occurrence free of charge under the Quaife lifetime warranty policy. We will, however, replace the housings at a specially arranged price that covers our manufacturing costs.

All other components of this differential remain fully covered under our limited lifetime warranty.

For more info, contact our tech department at (949) 240-4000.


lumbercis wrote:I did a little reading on the dsm forums and it seems like they use a 4-spider (or weld the center diff) and keep the VC unit (someone correct me if I'm wrong)?

Pat, what have you broken in the front? I'd like to hear more opinions on the relative benefits of the VC vs torsen.


I just talked with Pat on the phone yesterday. He has never had any issues with the front or center differentials. And he told me when John Frana was looking at our diffs design, he felt there was plenty of room for a high strength piece.

Now if you watch slow motion drag launches you can tell which cars run the 4 spider w/ factory VC compared to a welded center. ones with the VC spin the front tires about 3 times for every time the rears rotate. Welded diffs obviously rotate at the same speed.

But I'm not welding my center diff. Don't want to do that to my car.
Last edited by BADNEWS on Mon Nov 12, 2012 3:03 am, edited 2 times in total.
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