Found a front LSD!!

BADNEWS

Member
Got an email from John today:

Ryan,
Yes, I've obviously gotten your e-mails. I should have time to call tomorrow. In short, this is pretty much how I remembered the diffs going together and I think we could come up with a replacement. I think it would be most practical/economical to make both of them helical gear (torsen/quaife) style. That may or may not require/allow eliminating the viscous coupler.

John
 

toayoztan

Moderator
So I may be interested. However, I've not been up to date with anything regarding any of our differentials (front, center, rear, what's weak, what's not, etc.) - too busy with school the past 3.5 years and interviews at the moment.

To make this a more proper GB and hopefully grab more interest and attention, can anyone give a break down on what advantage this has over the stock unit, how much power can we expect this to hold, what warranty would be in place, what race application this mainly applies to, would this allow the car to be streetable, what rear diff setups can this be used with and shouldn't be advised using with, would people have to replace this themselves, etc..

I love that something is getting started on this though.

Bryan
 

bmt

New member
Can anyone explain in very SIMPLE terms the advantage of a front lsd? In real world conditions AND for track conditions? Obviously they help with traction but what is the effect on under/over steer? Wheel lift under hard cornering? When the wheel comes back down? I understand that on a straight line launch it would help with traction off the line so for drag applications it would be awesome. Has anyone driven a car with a front lsd and their alltrac in the same track/conditions? So they can give us an honest appraisal of the advantages.

I just want a bit of HONEST knowledge, rather than "I reckon it would be cool to have"

Cheers!!
 

BADNEWS

Member
Here is some info I found:

evo stuff":p4r9d219 said:
This helical limited slip differential (LSD) takes the place of the Lancer Evolution's open front differential, giving the RS mechanical front and rear differentials that split power delivery between their respective left and right wheels, and a center differential that splits the power between front and rear. The front differential's helical design provides it with smooth operation and superior responsiveness. Small in both size and weight, the helical unit does not require special oil or additional maintenance.

Helical-type limited-slip differentials offer several advantages over the clutch-type or viscous LSDs. Viscous limited-slip units tend to wear out after extended use, as their oil is heated and reheated until it degrades, rendering the unit ineffective. Clutch-type differentials provide good off-the-line traction, but the 50/50 stability that's beneficial in a straight line is not so desirable when a vehicle is turning. The helical-type limited slip provides better durability and performance when it's needed most: while turning. Unlike an open differential, which shifts power to the wheel with less grip, the helical LSD constantly shifts the bias toward the wheel that has more traction.

Under straight-line acceleration, power remains evenly split between the front wheels. While cornering (e.g. accelerating out of a turn), the helical LSD directs power away from the inside wheel and toward the outside wheel, allowing the driver to begin accelerating earlier and exit the turn at a higher speed, without losing traction in the process.

more evo stuff":p4r9d219 said:
I'd say durability/reliability... Not a fan of clutch type front diffs on anything but a race car that gets frequent servicing. People can say well I did this, or I did that. However, 10k (or sometimes MUCH less) miles later, someone who truly knows what a car is supposed to do will notice the clutch type diffs wearing out. Whereas the gear types like Quaife, you take it out when you wear out the car from around it (sleight exaggeration )... Pardon the grammer/spelling from the phone/freeway.

For example, my stock rear diff is shot... My older OE RS front diff still going strong. IMO the RS front is fine for the road racer/daily driver. However, the drag racer/auto-X clutch pedal side stepper would be better served with the Quaife/Wavetec type units for the front. For the rear, being that the Evo likes to hike a rear leg, I WOULD stick with a clutch type out back for obvious reasons. Not to mention, it's easy to get to, and about $250ish for "good" rebuilds.

even more evo stuff":p4r9d219 said:
I've raced my hillclimb car with both the Cusco and Wavetrac. You could feel/hear the Cusco working, very aggressive and you could tell it was working to pull you out of the corners. The Wavetrack works, but you don't feel like its working as hard. My Cusco was a 1.5way diff so they're slightly different in that respect, but I'm primarily comparing thier on-throttle performance.

FWIW, I run on mixed surfaces, both tarmac and gravel and have a MoTeC MDC to control the ACD system. Rear of the car had a 2-way Cusco for a bit, and now I've got a Carbonetics 1.5way in the back.

more info:
http://www.houseofthud.com/differentials.htm

http://magnusmotorsports.com/tech-articles/kaaz-vs-torsen-differentials/
 

BADNEWS

Member
toayoztan":2czj9oel said:
So I may be interested. However, I've not been up to date with anything regarding any of our differentials (front, center, rear, what's weak, what's not, etc.) - too busy with school the past 3.5 years and interviews at the moment.

To make this a more proper GB and hopefully grab more interest and attention, can anyone give a break down on what advantage this has over the stock unit, how much power can we expect this to hold, what warranty would be in place, what race application this mainly applies to, would this allow the car to be streetable, what rear diff setups can this be used with and shouldn't be advised using with, would people have to replace this themselves, etc..

I love that something is getting started on this though.

Bryan


Well Pat (alltrac 101) and myself plan on running these. Pat is making 900awhp and I should be in the area of 700-750 awhp. WE both are not real worried about these holding up to our power levels. The Quaife style (helical gears in pockets) are VERY strong units. The factory rear torsen T2 style where the gears rotate on a shaft are a weaker design.

I'll talk with John about his warranty if he even has one.

The torsen is more streetable then the clutch type for 2 reasons. 1. Never wears out. It's gears ,so there are no wear parts like a clutch type. 2. quieter

you can run whatever you want in the rear. stock open, stock torsen, or cusco (clutch type). Those are your 3 options currently.
 
You are absolutly right. Clutch type front and center is no good for street. TRD marketed them for GrN rally aplicatons. It was sold for the most part by TTE from Germany along with some other sourses. I have them in my Dog transmission used for rally and you can feel chatter from transmission when you make slow sharp turns on pavement. It doesn't like paralel parking. Also front left axle stub eventually brakes and I had to have reengeneered version.
 

underscore

Well-known member
Ok so reading all that, I would imagine we only want a helical design as almost everyone has a street car or uses their Alltrac in more than just a straight line.
 

4rsnduction

New member
underscore":3h1zttb6 said:
Ok so reading all that, I would imagine we only want a helical design as almost everyone has a street car or uses their Alltrac in more than just a straight line.
Sounds like this is the post that stops us chasing our tails.
Helical type is the savior.
 

cgtdream

New member
Just like always, ill commit myself to this. To be honest though, this possible group buy is a risk. It seems like we would be test dummies, for a product that may or may not work as intended.....Then again, i assume that those on this forum like to live life on the dangerous side.... :shoots: :smokes:

EDIT: On a side note, my interest might wane, depending on whether or not the quiafe diff ever gets some grounds.
 

lumbercis

Moderator
^ I think most of us are aware of that there is a certain level of risk that the part won't be as expected. But the reality is that we're basically at the mercy of anyone who is willing to make low-production parts for us. I'm willing to take the chance this will be a decent front LSD, since the alternative if I don't take that chance is no front LSD. :shrug:

We don't have to go on blind faith however. We should attempt to get reviews on Frana's work and business practices from other forums or people that have dealt with him before.
 

BADNEWS

Member
Found some info on the http://www.calibersrt4.net forum. A company called Realtune ran a group buy for these diffs since the only option they had was a phantom grip. Here are some of the posts by Realtune during the progress of their group buy. This was back in October of 2010:

REALTUNE 10/6/10":3r8rwtot said:
An update : Design work is done.

I will start taking deposits this weekend. We will be doing batches of 5 at a time. Wait time once I send the deposits in will be 8 weeks.

These will carry a one year warranty against any manufacturer defects. That doesnt mean you can drop it off a building and we will warranty it

The LSD will be a helical gear (quaife style) for those that missed it.

I will have total price etc. up once I start taking deposits.

realtune 10/28/10":3r8rwtot said:
I am ready to take deposits on the Realtune LSDs.

Price will be $1400 shipped to your door in the lower 48 states. Canada/Alaska/HI please add $40. I will need $700 down to lock you in on an order. Wait time is 8-10 weeks once we have 5 orders filled.


These will be direct drop in. No machine work needed on your end.
"Quaife" style LSD
1 year warranty against breakage [does not include labor or shipping one way]



This will most likely be your only chance to purchase a true LSD for your Caliber SRT-4. I will start with 5 units. If they sell good we will make 5 more and so on but your time frame are months in between.


Please contact me or Whoosh via PM or email Realtuned@yahoo.com

If someone does not have paypal, I can add it to the website for you to pay with a CC but will not do so unless someone needs it.

Realtune 3/30/11":3r8rwtot said:
Bump. I have one spot left

Realtune 7/25/11":3r8rwtot said:
Ok guys!

I got side tracked but I will be double checking a few things the next week or so. All LSDs are done waiting my approval to start shipping.


Now is the time I need to collect the final payments.

If you have paid, please shoot me a PM and we will discuss final payment.


Please do not delay!

Realtune 10/6/11":3r8rwtot said:
Finally an update as I was able to get the diff out of the test car tonight:

We have one area that needs to be touched up machining wise. This will take a bit of time but other than that we are good to go. I am happy with the pre-load and characteristics of the LSD but alas they were not machined 100% correct and if we dont touch it up....it could cause future problems. I doubt anyone wants that so I think we [1st batch owners] will all be in agreement that the extra bit of wait is worth it

Thanks again to all those involved for hanging in there as I realize we are waaay past our timeline.

Realtune 1/16/12":3r8rwtot said:
Ok I have a dilema guys.

I will have these back at the end of next week. Everything should be good to go but simply put....I do not have a test car ready to go until the end of March as its bare chassis right now. I can test fitment [which is what I was fixing] but not opperation [which was good from previous testing]

Does anyone who has purchased one of the 7 have time to install right away and give me feedback? Again from my testing before we should be good as what I was fixing had nothing to do with opperation. Im 99.99% sure they are ready to go but before I ship out all 7 of them I would like to be certain

I will offer free shipping and a Realtune T-shirt to whoever can help me out. Otherwise we might be stuck until March.

The install is basically a clutch install [pull trans, split case - no special tools, remove stock ring gear and install on new LSD, reverse removal process] Should be very easy for anyone with a bit of mechanical wit.

Any helpers [only those who have paid already] ?

Realtune 2/2/12":3r8rwtot said:
LSD test fitment is golden. I have a car Im going to do the final testing in next week and will have an update after that.

Thanks guys!

As a heads up, if all goes well as planned, I will be starting another batch order shortly after. Im hoping to be taking orders within the next 2 weeks

Realtune 2/11/12":3r8rwtot said:
LSD has been getting a beat down the past few days. Fitment is perfect and function is perfect. Going to give it a few more days an/d pull her back out for final inspection. I expect everything to be good to go and the pre-orders to start shipping /late next week /early the following.

Its been a long journey but well worth the wait IMO.

Realtune 2/16/12":3r8rwtot said:
Ok guys, the DIFFs are in and ready to start shipping!


Anyone that ordered, please contact me with your full mailing address and the date you paid. I will get you the shipping quote and get the package out as soon as we are square!


I will have pics up tomorrow for others to drool over


Sheldon37 2/29/12":3r8rwtot said:
Mine arrived today. I just hope There is enough room where my car is parked at the moment to allow installation. I really wanna feel the changes this will make in the car. Cheers

Ltromance 3/31/12":3r8rwtot said:
Holy jesus. This thing is so worth the money, torque steer is virtually NON existant, you can just feel the tread tearing off your tires when you hammer on it. LOVE the feeling of the car being able to launch in a straight line, all you have to worry about is keeping the tires from spinning too much.

Thump911 9/30/12":3r8rwtot said:
If you drive your car AT ALL, you need this! I just ran this badboy through it's first autocross yesterday....HOLY CRAP!!! Let's just say I made top 5 out of 82 cars yesterday!!! Well worth the investment and wait (for me at least!). Thanks guys...keep up the good work!!!

Now to quote Pat from page one

Alltrac101":3r8rwtot said:
In all reality its a 6 month to year out
 

alltracman78

Active member
So we're looking at $2500 for front and center helical LSDs? I'm definitely interested and can swing the money.
Will it be the same setup as the TRD ones? Or in the same setup as factory? Or we don't know yet?
 

klue

New member
In order for the the parts we need to be developed, we need people who are willing to be test dummies... There is no way one person can afford to, or source enough GT4s with different mods, driving conditions and geographic location to give us a good test base UNLESS we all chip in and go for it. If shit breaks well hey that happens, its only going to further the development of the cars we love.
It just sucks that our community is so small so we generally have to suck a bigger portion of the damage up. Besides that these guys know what they are doing im sure they have some confidence in what they are putting out otherwise they shouldn't be in business nor would they be for long. On that note, ive got a budget and buying just the lsd will blow that, so it will have to wait good luck guys
 

BADNEWS

Member
OK I talked with John on the phone today. He said to do just a front lsd is just not feasible. So in order for him to do it, he has to make both a front lsd and center lsd. The design will be just like stock. So both diffs will be in the transmission. The viscous coupling unit will be eliminated completely. He is willing to do a run of just 3 to 5 units for an estimated price of $4000 a unit. The more people we get the lower the price will be.

I'm willing to still do it at this price because I know this is about our only shot at this. But I truly don't see it happening. Even at 3 units. So if you're interested let me know and I will get this underway. But I will not push this anymore and I'm just planning on running my Cusco rear lsd, upgraded Mario center VC unit and stock open till people step forward to me.

I guess we can hope Quaife can come up with a design, and is willing to sell them with a group buy of less than 15 units. But again the shot of that happening is about the same as 2 others to agree to do this Front/Center combo at this price.

I love my Alltrac but this is where I hate having such a rare car.
 

alltracman78

Active member
Ouch

Yeah, I don't know about 4Gs man.
I can swing 2500 but 4000 is probably more than I can do.

Did he mention a setup like the TRD one?
With the center diff in the trans and the front diff in the T case?
 

BADNEWS

Member
I figured on the price and totally understand.

No. It'll be like stock. He said doing it like TRD would be too much to do.
 
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