Project CMS

Where's the mind blow smiley face?

MWP":ackerbnr said:

Yeeeeeah.
Thats just a big blurb by someone who knows obviously quite little about suspension setup.
Its all overly dramatic, as was your "big issues that holds our cars back in the racing world".

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:shrug: Never claimed to be an expert like you, but as usual you come into a post to demean without bringing data or trying to educate. I am in the process of learning, and trying to share what I learn. I think before doing too much to the car from a budget stand point it is better to research and collect data before having stuff built or bought. I have learned from previous mistakes. You may think me dramatic, but I am passionate about these cars and our community. I have seen a lot of members give up on these cars, and I would rather see more people racing them and winning.

MWP":ackerbnr said:

Anyone that doesn't know that overly dropping ride height of a car leads to a heap of other geometry issues, is never going to have a properly competitive race car.
It doesn't just apply to GT4's, it applies to any car.

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This is something I know, but the problem with this is there is not a lot of public data on what the actual is a proper ride height for the 185. It is very possible that stock ride height on a 185 is going to be the best from a geometry standpoint. That is how toyota designed it. The goal is the find out the best balance of ride height while maintaining the best geometry. Adrian's conclusion with keeping stock parts and his koni race shock inserts, 1" is the most he wanted to go. Martin on the other hand found he can go lower when making changes to the control arm and steering arm. TRD's lowering springs only brought the car down just over 3/4" so in that respect that may be a clue to Adrian's data being close. My car was lowered 1.9" vs the 1.3" tein suggests. Raising my car to teins recommended height changed the car dramatically (mostly due to more travel). There were claims in the past that there were no geometry problems unless you go more than 2" lower than stock, but without any hard data it was more internet speculation.

MWP":ackerbnr said:

I am looking forward to seeing the amounts you measure.
The tool looks interesting. I gather the dial gauge measures against the big plate as you move the suspension up/down?
If so, how does it account for change in the kingpin angle?

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Here is a link to the instructions. http://www.longacreracing.com/technical ... ?item=8162
You angle the the roller and dial against the plate. You jack the suspension from the chosen ride height through your range of travel and take readings. I can not answer your 2nd question because I have more to read up before I gather my data. I also want to take some of my own measurements before doing so to get an idea of my roll center etc.. I think this will all be more involved than just using this gauge, but this gauge will give me some ideas about how much toe change I have in various conditions. And like I said, it may not be a big issue at all, and its possible that if there is it could be a simple fix. Hopefully we can all learn something from this, and people can use the data to approach their own setups. But of course there is enough variance car to car that my exact changes may not be the solution for everyone and each individual who wants to make these sort of changes is best off measuring themselves. The same amount of shims etc.. I may use may not be the same for another 185.

CMS-GT4":1d9tkgdh said:

:shrug: Never claimed to be an expert like you, but as usual you come into a post to demean without bringing data or trying to educate. I am in the process of learning, and trying to share what I learn. I think before doing too much to the car from a budget stand point it is better to research and collect data before having stuff built or bought. I have learned from previous mistakes. You may think me dramatic, but I am passionate about these cars and our community. I have seen a lot of members give up on these cars, and I would rather see more people racing them and winning.

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Im no expert, ive never claimed to be, and never will be. There is always more to be learnt.
I'm obviously passionate about these cars too, i race mine, and ill continue to improve mine until... well, forever, as long as i have it.

Making the statement that bumpsteer is what holds GT4s back in the racing world is overly dramatic though, and really, its not true.
If you are racing a GT4, you need to pay attention to suspension, and part of that is bumpsteer. Bumpsteer is a pretty easy thing to fix in the big scheme of suspension mods.
Today, GT4s are held back by age & tech. A GT4 needs a hell of a lot more maintenance & mods to make it competitive with a WRX or EVO.

CMS-GT4":1d9tkgdh said:

This is something I know, but the problem with this is there is not a lot of public data on what the actual is a proper ride height for the 185. It is very possible that stock ride height on a 185 is going to be the best from a geometry standpoint. That is how toyota designed it. The goal is the find out the best balance of ride height while maintaining the best geometry. Adrian's conclusion with keeping stock parts and his koni race shock inserts, 1" is the most he wanted to go. Martin on the other hand found he can go lower when making changes to the control arm and steering arm. TRD's lowering springs only brought the car down just over 3/4" so in that respect that may be a clue to Adrian's data being close. My car was lowered 1.9" vs the 1.3" tein suggests. Raising my car to teins recommended height changed the car dramatically (mostly due to more travel). There were claims in the past that there were no geometry problems unless you go more than 2" lower than stock, but without any hard data it was more internet speculation.

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The problem here is that geometry just doesn't go from "good" to "bad".
There will be an ideal height where bumpsteer is at its minimum (best), but there wont be a lowered amount where bumpsteer suddenly becomes a problem.
You cant just say 2mm of bumpsteer is ok, but 4mm is not.
What happens if lowering the car to the point where you have 4mm bumpsteer actually makes your lap times quicker due to the cars lower COG?

CMS-GT4":1d9tkgdh said:

Here is a link to the instructions. http://www.longacreracing.com/technical ... ?item=8162
You angle the the roller and dial against the plate. You jack the suspension from the chosen ride height through your range of travel and take readings. I can not answer your 2nd question because I have more to read up before I gather my data. I also want to take some of my own measurements before doing so to get an idea of my roll center etc.. I think this will all be more involved than just using this gauge, but this gauge will give me some ideas about how much toe change I have in various conditions. And like I said, it may not be a big issue at all, and its possible that if there is it could be a simple fix. Hopefully we can all learn something from this, and people can use the data to approach their own setups. But of course there is enough variance car to car that my exact changes may not be the solution for everyone and each individual who wants to make these sort of changes is best off measuring themselves. The same amount of shims etc.. I may use may not be the same for another 185.

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Ah ha! It has a swivel on the bottom. Thats how it accounts for kingpin angle change, all good then
I might have to copy that design and make one for myself. I'll need it if/when i look at installing the GT86 rack.

I think camber & caster setup will change bumpsteer values. I dont think anything else will do though.

If you have the time, maybe measure the rear suspension too?
Toyota may have designed in some rear toe under bump to help stabilise the rear end. It would be interesting to know if they have.

I will be measuring the rear too, thought maybe not right away. I need to read up and see what needs to be disconnected if anything. I need to remove the springs from the stock struts before I take the readings as well. As I understand it the toe will change linear with the movement of the suspension. So what I am looking at is likely finding the balance between the full travel and minimum bump. I am hoping the tierod flip is ultimately the solution, but if not I will be looking at measuring the pivot point from the steering arm.
Here is a video I found before buying the gauge where an rx7 measures. You can see the toe change in one part. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Stp9kHAGfXQ
In other news I had been in contact with Jvab on a building a bilstein suspension for these cars. I had never heard of him before someone suggested him to me on youtube. From what I have gathered he is some sort of bilstein wizard. He mostly makes gravel setups for rally but can make me a street track setup. He does not do adjustable setups. He claims he builds it right and it does not need adjustment for the end user to screw up settings. His stuff isn't cheap though, of course. 2200 for 40mm, 2400 for 50mm. He suggests I run 50mm front and 40mm rear. His top hats are $200 more. He has built for a 185 before.

EDIT: This is an article I felt did the best job of discussing bump steer. http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/chassis-su ... explained/

CMS-GT4":2h2po2w6 said:

I need to read up and see what needs to be disconnected if anything. I need to remove the springs from the stock struts before I take the readings as well. As I understand it the toe will change linear with the movement of the suspension. So what I am looking at is likely finding the balance between the full travel and minimum bump. I am hoping the tierod flip is ultimately the solution, but if not I will be looking at measuring the pivot point from the steering arm.

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Yeah, spring comes off the strut. It'll be a good idea to pop off the sway bar link too.
There is nothing else that gets disconnected/removed unless it gets in your way (ie, brake caliper/rotor).

It'll be very close to being linear toe with compression/droop.
Geometry of the steering arm makes it non-linear (this is actually what provides the important ackerman angle/effect), but you might not see it in the measurements.

CMS-GT4":2h2po2w6 said:

Here is a video I found before buying the gauge where an rx7 measures. You can see the toe change in one part. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Stp9kHAGfXQ

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Yeah, that is a good vid showing how it works
I wonder if his tie rod end spacing height ended up being almost the same as the amount he lowered the car by.

In other news I had been in contact with Jvab on a building a bilstein suspension for these cars. I had never heard of him before someone suggested him to me on youtube. From what I have gathered he is some sort of bilstein wizard. He mostly makes gravel setups for rally but can make me a street track setup. He does not do adjustable setups. He claims he builds it right and it does not need adjustment for the end user to screw up settings. His stuff isn't cheap though, of course. 2200 for 40mm, 2400 for 50mm. He suggests I run 50mm front and 40mm rear. His top hats are $200 more. He has built for a 185 before.

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Thats a pretty good price for custom made & tuned struts.
You are taking his word on them being setup perfectly, but i guess if he has a really good reputation its better than randomly tweaking knobs in the car.

The housings are chromoly, and he has been building wrc and rally suspension since the 70s. I want to research more though. Its a lot to spend, and may be more than I need or not even suit me needs. I am still tempted by the universal bilstein race strut as sort of a diy option as well.

I understand the desire to make your car everything you want it and more. What I dont understand is what an extreme suspension setup is needed for. From what I have seen you drive your car about as much as I drive mine....hardly at all. So why try and modify it to where its on a competitive level, one thats on the same level as one of the WRC cars were. Or any one of the other fully race prepped and factory backed machines you used as an example.
If your looking to break records or be highly competitive in some sort of racing world, the Alltrac is NOT the chassis to start with. Plain and simple. Buy a GT-R or a Lotus Exige, modify from there.

I am actually not seeking an extreme setup. I am really seeking a balanced setup that will do what I want and on the street and let function for some part time racing enough to enjoy myself. From my research I am finding to get the sort of characteristics I want, I can't just buy something off the shelf and call it a day. I am looking for something that suits my car and its mods as well as my driving style. I doubt with any car that I own that I will ever truly be competitive at an upper level because I don't have the time to dedicate to getting that good. Your right, I don't drive the car that much, but now that my kid is older that is changing. We are already planning to do a lot more with the car this year, but I had been unhappy with the feel of it, and I want to tune it to my likings. The reality is most of the tech seems to come from the racing world, and so my research is top down. I am looking at what is done with the higher end setups and seeing what I can find in the lower end that will get me similar effects.
Truth is there is some sacrifice on a lot of the lower end kits. No shock dynos, generic calculations for models, universal parts, un matched dampening, and not as reliable build wise. For the average person that isn't a huge deal, especially if they just want to lower the car and have the car ride well enough. I am not like some of the suspension snobs that thinks your car will explode and you can't even enter an autox with something like that. I found that BCs have done well on a lot of events, and are compliant on the street. Same with Ksport etc.. I found some BC data where a 3rd party put a set on their race 350z and compared lap times between that and their race suspension. They were a few seconds slower, but at the end they said for a hobbyist, is that 3 seconds worth the extra 5 grand. For me its not.
I will admit, I have gotten a bit sucked in on this research, and realistically looking at my budget, time and goals I am still best off picking Feal or Fortune Auto. They both offer a lot of the things I mentioned the other coilovers are missing, and they do well on the street and well on the track. Feal wins out from an ease of install and support standpoint, and FA gets points for being able to be upgraded much further if I ever wanted to get more serious in racing or fine tune the car even more. The only real drawback to FA is I would still need to get a lower mount made, and they are not going to support me using it on a 185.
Your right, there are better cars to start with for this sort of thing, but this car has my heart. If I had any sense, I would had been building my 350z instead of the alltrac but sometimes heart beats brain.

I found this today. No idea how legit it is, but it is an interesting read on a person rebuilding their own BC shocks into something better.
http://www.clublexus.com/forums/gs-firs ... 1-3-a.html

CSAlltrac":2qwcsudv said:

I understand the desire to make your car everything you want it and more. What I dont understand is what an extreme suspension setup is needed for. From what I have seen you drive your car about as much as I drive mine....hardly at all. So why try and modify it to where its on a competitive level, one thats on the same level as one of the WRC cars were. Or any one of the other fully race prepped and factory backed machines you used as an example.

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I agree with this. I competitively race my FWD Celica, and do quite well. I'm currently using BC Racing's RAM type coilovers with re-valved shocks to match my desired spring rates. I understand that an MCS JRZ, Penske, etc. shock package would definitely result in quicker lap times, but you're looking at thousands of dollars, and I'm not willing to spend that. I don't have any crazy elaborate suspension changes like you're mentioning are required, and I can keep up with some of the fastest cars though the corners.

I understand that you want the best suspension that you can get, but for what? The occasional autocross or lapping day? Until you have your car and driving completely sorted and consistent, I wouldn't be throwing thousands of dollars at the suspension. A simple coilover and a proper alignment will work fine for you. It seems like you have plenty of good ideas, but shut them all down because of cost. Perhaps sticking with your Tein dampers, and investing in some SWIFT springs to match the spring rate that you want, and spending your money on lapping days is a better option. Seat time is hands-down the best thing you can do to improve lap times at this point. I'm not trying to put you or your ideas down, but trying to offer some advice based on my experiences.

I already sold the teins, but if I kept them that was the plan. I was going to get swift springs and revalved for the new setup. I think the post I made right before you replied might clear up my thoughts a little, and I am likely toning my plans down a bit and being a little more realistic.
I laid awake a lot last night thinking about my goals, largely due to the medicine I am on right now, and the feal 441 does seem to make the most sense to me from a budget and goal standpoint.
I thought you were running Martin's modified lower control arms and spindles? As of right now my budget only consists of new coilovers and possibly new control arms. I have one bent, and I need to add caster for my tires to better clear the fenders. I can either get some cut and modified to add caster and later consider the extended ball joint, or I can have racerx just make me up a set that has the new ball joint setup in there and I am done. I was waiting to get my bump steer readings before I decide. Especially if just flipping the tierod sorts out the bump issues.

EDIT: There are a few racing schools coming to my area that I am considering. I have a road course down the street from me, and Skip Barber, Evo, and SCCA all have schools going on there. I agree a better driver makes the most of the car, and that certainly needs to be improved. I don't think I can spend the money Skip barber wants though, so the Evo school might be a bette choice.

I think that you're on the right track now! I would definitely recommend the BC RAM coilovers for both street and track driving. They are capable of handling up to 12K spring rates without needing to be re-valved, and BC is able to send you shock dynos of all 4 shocks if you want them. Whichever shock option you go with, make sure you upgrade springs to Swift's. There is nothing on the current market that can compare.

I am using Martin's old lower control arms, and roll center adjusters, and I've done the tie-rod flip to bring bump steer back closer to stock. I have never measured the bump steer to know how much the flip changed bump steer, but Martin's arms only net about 2 degrees of caster. I'm going to flip my top hats to allow for camber/caster adjustment together and see how much I end up with. Hopefully 3-4 degrees.

The funny thing is I am back where I started but somehow the more data I got the deeper down the rabbit hole I keep going. The feals come with only swifts btw. The FA have swift as an option. BC was helpful on the phone but they told me unless they build me a custom setup they won't give me a dyno plot. Last I talks to them they were supposed to verify that they had an ER series that fit that 185, and never heard back about that. They did offer to build me an inverted ER for 2500. I don't think that included swifts though. My budget is about tapped out which is one reason I am doing so much research. I want to get the best bang for my buck and to make the best educated decision I can.

I sense the frustration of trying to pick the best option is starting to kick in :bangshead:
Its one of the most important parts of the car to choose/tune, but it is also the most difficult to do so without a mech eng degree and/or shock rebuild workshop.

It really is a problem when you want to find an option thats better than the common $1k coilover kit, but don't have the $$s to spend on development & re-shimming to get something better.

I went with my selection of the Koni Racing inserts because:
- they are readily available & a lot of shops can rebuild them
- have separate compression & rebound adjustment (which work independently, not all do)
- have a wide range of adjustment which will cover any spring choice i could want to run
- adjustment amount is reasonably accurate from damper to damper (ie, 2 clicks of rebound adj gives the same rebound rate on both)
- have digressive damping (req for decent handling on bumpy roads)
... and then i get my own choice of strut top, springs, bumpstop, etc.

The Koni Racing inserts do have a few downsides though:
- non-inverted, so the linear bushings will wear quicker (rebuild req every 2-3yrs?)
- are inserts, so heat transfer to the casing isnt the best (much better than non-ext reservoir inverted struts though)

CMS-GT4":2z96cmmv said:

I found this today. No idea how legit it is, but it is an interesting read on a person rebuilding their own BC shocks into something better.
http://www.clublexus.com/forums/gs-firs ... 1-3-a.html

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Nice find.
Its not very often you find details of working with damper innards like that (well, non-bilstein anyway).

I truly wonder if you could make a bc br handle like an ohlin just by changing shims? If so shock brand become irrelevant. The shimming is what's important.

My only concern is they had a plot to aim for. None of us have a plot or really know what we are aiming for :shrug:

Still an awesome article CMS

That is actually the approach feal took. They are using Hotbits components, and then their own shim stacks and oil you would find in things like Ohlin's. They use a digressive piston, but I do not know what it is from. Some of the wrx and miata guys had some high end dyno plots to go off of. They send those to him, and Odi replicates it pretty close with his build from the posted results. They actually offer the service to send in BC, Ksport etc.. and get them to rebuild them to be better. From what I understand is they used to be a service center that rebuilt factory and race shocks, and decided to make their own. On top of that, he is a race car driver, and has first hand experience with the shock results.

Got the stock suspension on. Going to let it settle some before I start taking measurements. I need to go get some nuts tomorrow for the front ones. I didn't realize the stock struts would be so much harder than the teins to squeeze in there. I am also going to pick up a spring compressor tomorrow so I can pull off the spring for the bump tests.

MWP":1h2s6ccw said:

I sense the frustration of trying to pick the best option is starting to kick in :bangshead:
Its one of the most important parts of the car to choose/tune, but it is also the most difficult to do so without a mech eng degree and/or shock rebuild workshop.

It really is a problem when you want to find an option thats better than the common $1k coilover kit, but don't have the $$s to spend on development & re-shimming to get something better.

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I had really considered the Konis. I think they are a good setup, but I see the price fluxuate a lot on the inserts. Seems now and then you might find them on sale for $350, but at the current going rate of $500 a shock, I would still be looking at around $2500 to build the setup. Its a still a good bang for the buck option though. Out of all the places I talked to though, Koni was the least helpful.
I worked up a fixed budget for this year and I was at about $3500. Seems that money can burn up fast when you start looking at parts. With all the bits I have bought so far, I am at about $2400 left, to get coilovers and the LCA. I do feel ok about going with the Feals though. They seem to do everything I want to do well enough, so I think I can make them work for me.

A new video is up. This one is mostly just taking some weights of a handful of parts.
http://youtu.be/h8OhJARHUGI

Now to get to the alignment.

One thing to keep in mind is when you lighten your suspension you are also reducing un-sprung weight which really helps to keep your tire on the ground. Typical rule is half the weight on any link arm/strut is unsprung the other half is sprung.

I'm running the PC680 Odyssey and that thing weighs nothing and it starts the car fine (although it has really low CCA but still started the car at below freezing temps). Also heard of guys using AGM Harley batteries to save weight too.

Are you going to get the corner weights of your car at all? If you do you can take the Koni's to get re-valved for your weight and spring rates if that's the route you wanna go.

I have the corner weights already. I'll be giving them to whoever I order my suspension from. My Odyssey worked great while it had juice. I had let it drain too low one time and that was the end of it. Now I have a trickle charger so I am not worried about it when I get one again.

Set up the gauge and took readings for stock height. I need to read up some of my results. I have read bump is not linear, and I want to verify that. I will likely retake my readings to compare.