Project CMS

Redswan

New member
Also the Teins should be here Monday! I am going to take a Sunday drive tomorrow and then start removing the stock stuff to send back to you. I'll also toss in one of these CS badges that I made as thanks for making this such a professional transaction.
 

CMS-GT4

Active member
Redswan":1ot9712k said:
Also the Teins should be here Monday! I am going to take a Sunday drive tomorrow and then start removing the stock stuff to send back to you. I'll also toss in one of these CS badges that I made as thanks for making this such a professional transaction.
Thanks!
I still have no idea what I am doing. I will likely spend some time tomorrow doing the math. I want to make sure the teins make it to you OK before I do anything. I am leaning towards Feal at the moment though.

Based on my dimensions I think I can make the Fortunes work, but sadly if there is a problem fitting the FA500 I am screwed. Also, they do a pretty good job with their valving, but they also do what seems somewhat general valving based on what the vendor tells them. I also learned their warranty was misleading. Its only 5 years on the external parts. While that is better than most, the internals are only on warranties 1 year like most companies. They have some clauses too, like driving on the street, they can use to void their warranty. So if they found out I was using a 205 suspension on a 185, they could decide not to support any warranty claims if needed. I was afraid that my wheel setup might not fit with their coils as well, but looking at my dimensions, the tein HAs are actually huge. They are 53-55mm on the housings, and the springs are 2.75" vs the 2.5" and 50mm bodies of the FA500. The FA500 is larger than most coils, but I think I would not have a problem clearing their hardware with my wheel setup. I may even gain a hair of clearance.

With all that said, I have spoken to Feal's owner, Odi, as well as another alltrac owner with them that tracks his car. I have also looked into their valving, and results in their race use. What is great about them, is I can give them all the data I have on the car. Corner weights, wheel frequency, uses and goals, and they will build the coilovers how I want. Essentially what they do is use Hotbits externals and their own high quality internals and build them in house. By going with the mass produced stuff, they can keep the price down. I have been reading a lot of their discussions and feedback, and apparently their company started as a suspension rebuilder. They did a lot of things like ohlins, bilsteins and other big brands as well as smaller ones. So they had experience and learned a lot over the years. The owner is a competitive drifter and they support a lot of rally and other racing. Also, just like the FA500 they have some digressive characteristics, which is what I seek. He will also take my t3 top hats and make them work with their setup so I don't have to figure it out.

I think in the end, performance wise, they are very similar between the two. I think internally they are likely on par as well. I think perhaps a few of the external bits on the FA500 are higher end, but they also use the same springs. The only difference in the two when it comes to price is the Feal would be a little cheaper, but if you want them to run each shock on a dyno to prove they are matched they now charge for that. It used to be included, but that ends up making both sets cost the same when you factor in FA500s swift spring upgrade.

Below is a pic I snapped of the passenger side before I pulled the teins off to note strut clearance.
 

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Redswan

New member
For whatever it is worth. Based on them being so similar, I would go with whoever has the best support and possibly warranty. Almost nobody does longer than a year on internals. It sounds like FEAL is willing to do more for you as a customer.
 

CMS-GT4

Active member
Yeah Feal is willing to make something good that suits me, while Fortune pretty much told me they had no interest in supporting our chassis. From a standpoint of someone who wants to support our cars, Feal is doing more to make me what to give them my business. Fortune worked with me some, but decided they do not feal comfortable making something for our chassis with their parts. Sadly no one makes a lower mount in the same thread pitch as theirs, so it is not such a simple mod. I would have to have their lower mount cut and welded with brackets, and that only adds to the cost. So most likely after you get the teins and inspect them and the deal is wrapped up as good I will likely be giving Feal a call and placing my order with them. Then they can start building what I want.
 

Redswan

New member
I think that FEAL is the best option too. I will sure let you know when the Teins get here. I am really excited to get them on there.
 

CMS-GT4

Active member
I used racing beat but they made for a miata and there were none on the market at the time. If you google real quick there are a couple of options cheaper than that.
 

CMS-GT4

Active member
Another project preview. Not sure when this one will get done, but here is a 99+ mustang gas tank cover over ours. It might be an option for making a level tank cover. Planning on dropping the rear subframe and installing my 205 subframe for the lighter paint, and fresher rubber. I will likely stick with 185 rear arms unless my next suspension has adjustable top plates.
 

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CMS-GT4

Active member
A little before and after of one of my winter projects.
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CMS-GT4

Active member
I got some new mirrors from Germany. I chose them for 1) They are lhd glass, and 2) No electronic folding gimmick. I wanted break away mirrors so I don't destroy the stock ones. I might leave them black for a while and maybe paint them down the road unless I finish up a lip by the time I put them on. The weather has been cold and holding my project back.
In other news I ordered a bump steer gauge so I can accurately redesign my suspension. I am still trying to sell stuff to increase my 2015 suspension budget.
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Redswan

New member
It is a Tamiya rally car model that I modified. I built it in like 2005 I don't even remenber where I gotthe wheels from, but they look ber OZ superturismo like.
 

CMS-GT4

Active member
I see. I think your ones in the clear plastic boxes are the same brand as mine maybe.

I just got a new tool in. I had been doing a lot of research lately, and honestly the community (including myself) has done a lot of guess work on suspension tuning. This tool here will allow me to get the right parts fabricated to zero out bump steer as much as possible. Planning on a tubular lower control arm, new coilovers and possible a new steering arm or spacers to get it all adjusted properly. For the longest time I misunderstood bumpsteer and I think now I can start figuring out one of the big issues that holds our cars back in the racing world.
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CMS-GT4

Active member
One of the knobs from the gauge got damaged in shipping. I called longacre to buy a replacement, and they said they will send me one for free. Now that is some customer service, considering the product is used, they still helped me out.
Hopefully it starts warming up so I can do an alignment and get these struts on there so I can test the bump steer. I'll do a video on it when I get it together. I did another video a couple weeks ago, I'll try and get up in the near future.
 

MWP

New member
CMS-GT4":154j29cd said:
For the longest time I misunderstood bumpsteer and I think now I can start figuring out one of the big issues that holds our cars back in the racing world.

Hm. Im just wondering how/where you got this idea from?
 

CMS-GT4

Active member
Well I will give you an idea where I got various parts from the statement you quoted.
I have been on here for a long time, and I have seen people move on from these cars. Many of them raced these cars in road courses and autox, and they moved on. Some of these people raced higher end cars at the same time, and made threads here trying to figure out why they can't get faster times out of their 185. They found it was easier to go faster in other cars. I have seen weight reduction, nice suspension setups, and lots of off the shelf parts on these cars, and they all perform alright based on user results but other than those with a lot of money or research in their setups, they were not winning events. This didn't make sense for me for a long time considering this car is a racing legend. The more I have researched as of late, I find there is not near as much resembling the production car in the race car as I imagined. These are high dollar, fine tuned and perfected setups in a lot of these real race cars. A street 185 with a handful of performance parts installed on it, isn't in the same ball league.
Now I have not given up on this car, and I have been talking to chassis engineers, and suspensions companies and reading all the while trying to get a clue to some of the drawbacks of the suspension design.
I know that people like Martin, Adrian, and Beaty all have gone fast, and ranked high in events with their research and modifications. I know they all have dealt with bumpsteer as a result. Even whiteline claims bumpsteer is a problem on these cars when lowered too low.
I misunderstood bump steer. Sadly the internet is a misinformation super highway and anyone can post something and lead others astray, then that will spread forum to forum. I found the best info on the subject from dirt racers. Seems that rather than try and keep everything secret there is a lot more support for the community and a lot of the companies that make the parts provide a lot of data. I was thinking bump steer was a jolting of the steering when hitting a bump, and I was way off. I actually had reduced my travel too much and was having a shock from increased spring rate by bump stop contact. Once I figured this out, I spent more time reading and less assuming, as spending money to change things via trial and error is a waste of money. Especially once I learned I was not near as low as I thought I was. I decided to abandon any of the bumpsteer correction ideas until I actually had some data that showed me I did need to change something.
In my research I was able to find a lot of measured data from Adrian's celica. The front suspension is the same, and he was able to discover that more than 1" lowered causes some geometry changes that he did not feel benefit the car. The thing that was not talked about was how travel effects these same geometry characteristics. When you lower our cars, you increase camber. When you increase camber you change toe. Toe effects turn in, and when things are not going the same way you can get unpredictable results. But I had still been thinking of things as in going lower causes a change. Extending the suspension causes changes as well, and you need to measure bump for both directions. In a turn you are compressing one side more than the other, so you might be getting toe out on the outside tire and tow in on the inside tire, but maybe not to the same degree. Then there is the whole issue of turn bump steer that most people don't even tune for, that needs to be addressed.
So without going on and on, that leaves me to determine just how much of an issue this is on our cars. We can speculate, and assume and ignore and it all may be fine. I may have followed some ideas that may end up not needing a lot of changes, or have much effect on the car at all. But I will feel better knowing I have the tools to measure and find out and share with the community in hopes that there will be faster 185s out there, even if its not mine. Once this weather clears up I will do an alignment and hook up the stock shocks and try and get some data, and hopefully we can all work together to make some sense of it and build what these cars need to succeed for us low buck racers.
 

MWP

New member
Yeeeeeah.
Thats just a big blurb by someone who knows obviously quite little about suspension setup.
Its all overly dramatic, as was your "big issues that holds our cars back in the racing world".

Anyone that doesn't know that overly dropping ride height of a car leads to a heap of other geometry issues, is never going to have a properly competitive race car.
It doesn't just apply to GT4's, it applies to any car.

I am looking forward to seeing the amounts you measure.
The tool looks interesting. I gather the dial gauge measures against the big plate as you move the suspension up/down?
If so, how does it account for change in the kingpin angle?
 
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