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FC Zach

Active member
underscore":2m8kyw6s said:
GT4times2":2m8kyw6s said:
A FWD Celica GTS (6th Gens are going for cheap now, and they're pretty interesting cars. They handle well with minor mods ,and 180hp is not bad. Lighter than the older Celicas) would not be bad either.

If you go with a 6th gen GTS I suggest considering a 1MZ/3MZ swap. They're fairly well documented and only require minor fabrication (1 motor mount and 1 cv support) with a bit of wiring, and then you've got a slightly more modern 200+ NA HP that is still reliable and has good parts availability.

6th gens didn't have a GTS trim (I don't think) however the GT does have the 5S in it so why not bolt a 3S in it place. . especially if you have one laying around. I loved my 6th gen and regret selling it but due to unfortunate circumstances I had to. If I still had my ST, my plan was to do a 4A-GE 20valve Blacktop which is another great option if you run across an ST for cheap. Only issue with that swap is parts availability. . The 6th gen handles great out of the box as mentioned by GT4times2.

EDIT: I see you're in Canada now, GTS 6th gens were an option there. I guess they still had the 5S in them?
 

GT4times2

Moderator
I apologize! I got my math wrong. I meant 7th Gen :doh: .

And, yes 6th Gens are great cars too. In Josh's case, if I went 6th Gen, a 3SGE swap would be my choice vs V6. No mounts to worry about, and wiring is relatively simple. 2nd and 3rd Gen 3SGE motors are great, and relatively cheap from most importers, less crowded engine bays (vs V6), and the list goes on.

I've been thinking about an MR2 with that swap. Too many turbo 4cyl cars in my stable. These are just thoughts at the moment. :twisted: :evil:

But I doubt, he'd want another project, hence the 7th Gen suggestion. Comes with a decent set up. No swaps to worry about, and a good chassis to begin with. Or he can go with an S2000 or Miata for his TN car. Both great cars for those roads.
 

underscore

Well-known member
7th gens are awesome cars, I just talked my sister in law into buying a GT as her first car and the missus has a Matrix XR (same driveline). After all the research I did into them both, if you have a family you want to bring along I'd honestly buy a Matrix instead for the better rear seat and massive amount of storage space, the XR has the same 1ZZ as the Celica GT and the XRS has the 2ZZ of the GTS with the 6 speed manual. In FWD trim it only weighs 29lbs more than the Celica and the XRS pulled .83 g in a skidpad test, only .03 g less than the Celica GTS.

The S2K and Miata are better cars, but they're only 2 seaters and (at least around here) 2-3x the price of a Celica or Matrix. If you're lucky enough to have a wife that doesn't mind daily driving a manual, get a Matrix XRS, put some slightly better dampers in it (fronts are supposedly identical to a 5th gen Celica, rears I'm not sure), and when you want to take a road trip with the family toss the good tires from your Celica on it (same bolt pattern and offset as our Celica's give or take) and go sling it down backroads.

FC Zach":3m7boepi said:
6th gens didn't have a GTS trim (I don't think) however the GT does have the 5S in it so why not bolt a 3S in it place. . especially if you have one laying around. I loved my 6th gen and regret selling it but due to unfortunate circumstances I had to. If I still had my ST, my plan was to do a 4A-GE 20valve Blacktop which is another great option if you run across an ST for cheap. Only issue with that swap is parts availability. . The 6th gen handles great out of the box as mentioned by GT4times2.

EDIT: I see you're in Canada now, GTS 6th gens were an option there. I guess they still had the 5S in them?

We have a few GTS' up here but they aren't common, I think they're effectively the same as a GT but with every option added or something like that. Only reason I wouldn't do a 3S is you're adding back all the potential headaches of an older turbocharged engine that most of us would be trying to get away from, there's not much point to buying a non-Alltrac just to build most of an Alltrac.
 

GT4times2

Moderator
underscore":4qt50at0 said:
7th gens are awesome cars, I just talked my sister in law into buying a GT as her first car and the missus has a Matrix XR (same driveline). After all the research I did into them both, if you have a family you want to bring along I'd honestly buy a Matrix instead for the better rear seat and massive amount of storage space, the XR has the same 1ZZ as the Celica GT and the XRS has the 2ZZ of the GTS with the 6 speed manual. In FWD trim it only weighs 29lbs more than the Celica and the XRS pulled .83 g in a skidpad test, only .03 g less than the Celica GTS.

The S2K and Miata are better cars, but they're only 2 seaters and (at least around here) 2-3x the price of a Celica or Matrix. If you're lucky enough to have a wife that doesn't mind daily driving a manual, get a Matrix XRS, put some slightly better dampers in it (fronts are supposedly identical to a 5th gen Celica, rears I'm not sure), and when you want to take a road trip with the family toss the good tires from your Celica on it (same bolt pattern and offset as our Celica's give or take) and go sling it down backroads.

FC Zach":4qt50at0 said:
6th gens didn't have a GTS trim (I don't think) however the GT does have the 5S in it so why not bolt a 3S in it place. . especially if you have one laying around. I loved my 6th gen and regret selling it but due to unfortunate circumstances I had to. If I still had my ST, my plan was to do a 4A-GE 20valve Blacktop which is another great option if you run across an ST for cheap. Only issue with that swap is parts availability. . The 6th gen handles great out of the box as mentioned by GT4times2.

EDIT: I see you're in Canada now, GTS 6th gens were an option there. I guess they still had the 5S in them?

We have a few GTS' up here but they aren't common, I think they're effectively the same as a GT but with every option added or something like that. Only reason I wouldn't do a 3S is you're adding back all the potential headaches of an older turbocharged engine that most of us would be trying to get away from, there's not much point to buying a non-Alltrac just to build most of an Alltrac.

Agree with everything you said. Speaking of the swap, I was talking about a 3SGE not GTE. They're NA motors, that make between 160-180hp (depending on generation). Or if he wants to pay more, he can get the 3SGE BEAMS :D .

Info here:
http://www.jdmspecengines.com/toyota-en ... 3s-ge.html

I Had a colleague that put one in his 90 Celica GTS years ago. That car gave the Integra GS-Rs and Civics a run for their money. That's the engine Toyota should have brought in the 94-99 Celica GT here (Toyota is short sighted). They're direct swaps. However, I don't think Josh wants to go through another swap, and that's why I suggested the 7th gen GT-S.
 

underscore

Well-known member
Derp, my bad, I'm so used to 3S always referring to the GTE that I forget about the GE's. I'm not sure how we ended up with the 5SFE economy motor since it was used in so few cars - surely designing and tooling for a new motor that was worse than the one they already made was a waste of time and money. Back in my younger days a BEAMS swap for my 92 GTS was the dream, an older gent that worked around the corner from me has one in his mint 6g, although I don't know what's happened to him or it as I haven't seen it in a while.
 

pintoBC_3sgte

New member
underscore":1gs1sytw said:
Derp, my bad, I'm so used to 3S always referring to the GTE that I forget about the GE's. I'm not sure how we ended up with the 5SFE economy motor since it was used in so few cars - surely designing and tooling for a new motor that was worse than the one they already made was a waste of time and money. Back in my younger days a BEAMS swap for my 92 GTS was the dream, an older gent that worked around the corner from me has one in his mint 6g, although I don't know what's happened to him or it as I haven't seen it in a while.

Ross. He came to the ogopogo a few times. I think last I heard he went to Alberta for work.
 

CMS-GT4

Active member
GT4times2":1wp0cy6i said:
Great ideas altogether. I have been thinking the same things for 2 out of the 3 Alltracs, to keep the mods simple and keep them reliable. Contemplating keeping them at reliable 300whp (very feasible). I'm debating if it's even worth it at those Hp levels. Makes more sense to keep them running than being garage queens that keep breaking. I'm getting too old to be in a garage all day. Either that or sell them all, which I don't want to do now. I may sell the gray ST165 at some point. I have summers off (I'm a teacher- :| ), and this summer I had plans to work on both Celicas, but spent more time traveling and not once touched the cars :( . Sign of things to come, maybe?.. Less time on the cars, more on enjoying this short life. Ironically since work started, I've had a desire to get back into the cars. So these cars need to be reliable and relatively simple to work on. Bolt on mentality kicking in hard for the 4th gen swaps I have. :)

Life is short. Better spent driving the cars, or enjoying it. I think its a waste to spend my life underneath one.

GT4times2":1wp0cy6i said:
What kind of car were you looking at for TN? A nice RWD car would be interesting. Like an old Starlet or Corolla AE86 (if you want to go old school). or A FWD Celica GTS (6th Gens are going for cheap now, and they're pretty interesting cars. They handle well with minor mods ,and 180hp is not bad. Lighter than the older Celicas) would not be bad either. Or a NA MR2. I've been thinking of one as well, and keep it NA via 3SGE (Very cheap, and simple swap). Anyways, just throwing out ideas.

I would love to find a 3rd gen notchback gts celica. I have a feeling it would be hard to source one cheap anymore that wasn't in the worst shape. Whatever it is, it would have to be dirt cheap, and be cheap to build. I blew the last of my budget though on an HKS exhaust, so I can rule out that idea. I was thinking about it today, and I remembered my dad has an old geo metro sitting in the woods where I once stored my alltrac. Its not my ideal, but but it might still make a fun car. Turns out there is a 3cylinder turbo swap for them, or even people swapping in honda motors. 150-200hp would be more than enough in that tiny car. If I had a welder, it would also be a fun car to see if I could shoehorn a mr2 engine in the back of it, but the simpler (cheaper) the better.

GT4times2":1wp0cy6i said:
What kinds of power levels are hoping to get out of your set up, with the stock ECU? (You can always look into the AEM FIC as piggy back for additional tuning flexibility and keep the stock ECU. No need to rewire and deal with full management). Have you dyno'ed the car recently? Just to know where you are, and where you want to go HP wise? The CT20 is a nice turbo, and people get good numbers from them.

I have never dyno'd the car. The drag run was the closest thing to testing the power levels I ever did. I would be happy with similar numbers I have seen bpu 205s running. Just shy of 270whp. I have seen some dynos showing Mr2s making over 400 crank hp on ct20s. If I stick with this turbo, I would have it upgraded to inconel for longevity at higher boost. There are are a couple companies offering the upgrade, but I am waiting for more results. I am also watching for the release of the hybrid electric turbos they are using in f1. Production cars will have them coming the next year, and garret is working on one already. This would be the most ideal concept, but its all down to cost. Next in line would be a gt28rs or something similar for the sake of an excellent powerband. I want to keep it all as simple as possible. I have a BEAMS intake manifold I will try and use on the 3rd gen head. Besides that, I would just forge the guts. If I decided to do something bigger, I doubt I would even bother with a 3s. Too many modern improvements with some of these other toyota engines.

GT4times2":1wp0cy6i said:
Do tell about the Skyway. (I will Google it in a few) I plan on going to TN in a few months (mid October). Not with the Celicas, just a short vacation (thinking along the lines of cabin rental, relaxation, maybe hunting etc, looking at Pigeon Forge).
HAHAHAHAHA Relaxing and Pigeon Forge should not be in the same sentence. Pigeon Forge is a tourist trap that is stressful as hell.
Here is the Skyway. http://www.cherohala.org/
Keep in mind, stay off the double lines. Not just cause it isn't safe to cross lanes, but they are slick as hell. I have an old video running it with another alltrac. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=319Pcv9 ... cvD6Ynnk_2
 

CMS-GT4

Active member
Yeah, 7th gen vs 6th gen, I think the 7th gen is likely the best handling fwd celicas made. I like the look of the 6th gen better, but the price of the two are pretty close these days. At least up here. Hell even plain 5th gens are not much cheaper than either. So the 5-7 gen celicas are pretty close priced.

I think if I had the spare cash laying around I would just get a g35 sedan to use as a car to run down to tn with the family. I can drop them off and then go play on the dragon. I don't think there is any way we will ride down in the alltrac as long as car seats are involved. Maybe I just need to start making bank, then I can buy an ATS-V. That would suit us both.

My next trip down to TN, I am going to go check on this geo metro my dad has laying around. I had already dreamed of making a mid engine sleeper with it, but it might actually be a simple fun fwd car if I can find a decent cheap engine to toss into it. I can either look at the suzuki turbo option, or I can look at a honda swap. Of course a motorcycle engine isn't out of the question. I only want the thing to have a front lsd.
 

CMS-GT4

Active member
So I finally got the rpf1 mounted and I was going to try it on to see if it went with my silver. Turns out it does not clear my calipers. This is a 17x9 35et. So I guess if I ever need to run it, it will be on the rear, and the rear will have to go on the front. Oh well. Unless I end up with a thinner wilwood caliper in the future, I don't see myself running these.

11909385_1470737759898135_1735479787_n.jpg
 

underscore

Well-known member
By how much does it not clear? It might be easier to just keep a cheap slip on spacer in the glovebox than to be rotating tires at the roadside.
 

CMS-GT4

Active member
Looks like 10-12mm should be safe. I would need an extended set of studs to make use of that though. It would suit getting home safe, but that is about it.
 

CMS-GT4

Active member
Just picked up a 205 gearbox. Its low miles, but I don't plan on putting it in until the end of 2016. This gives me time to sort out a proper clutch, as well as any LSD solutions.
 

msanders2

New member
CMS-GT4":199fv31h said:
So I finally got the rpf1 mounted and I was going to try it on to see if it went with my silver. Turns out it does not clear my calipers. This is a 17x9 35et. So I guess if I ever need to run it, it will be on the rear, and the rear will have to go on the front. Oh well. Unless I end up with a thinner wilwood caliper in the future, I don't see myself running these.

11909385_1470737759898135_1735479787_n.jpg

Thank goodness they don't fit! (Just kidding). I have these exact wheels with tires mounted, sitting in my basement for 2 months ready to go on my Alltrac. But I'm not having much luck with finding a good 25mm spacer, or finding the time to roll my fenders. I chose silver also, even though they were more expensive then white/bronze/gunmetal, I like it because it looks more OEM.
 

CMS-GT4

Active member
I only got the silver cause it was on sale. I was going to pant them flat gray if I kept them. I might have my h&r spacers for sale in the near future since I'll be using 5x114 adapters in te rear instead. Need to make sure I sell my 17x7 wheels first.
 

88st165

New member
CMS-GT4":20js2yu2 said:
HAHAHAHAHA Relaxing and Pigeon Forge should not be in the same sentence. Pigeon Forge is a tourist trap that is stressful as hell.
Here is the Skyway. http://www.cherohala.org/
Keep in mind, stay off the double lines. Not just cause it isn't safe to cross lanes, but they are slick as hell. I have an old video running it with another alltrac. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=319Pcv9 ... cvD6Ynnk_2

I visited TN 2yrs ago to go hiking in the Smokey Mountains and my gf and I stayed in Pigeon Forge and also visited Gatlinburg. Wow I was not expecting it to be so touristy. Needless to say it wasnt the experience we were expecting but the hiking was amazing. I prob should have sought the advice of someone familiar with the area before hand. When we go back in the next couple years we will prob try and stay somewhere a bit more chill.
 

CMS-GT4

Active member
We used to host the celica meet in PF, and moved it to being just a dragon meet. Entering the dragon from Knoxville is much easier, and less chaos. Its faster too once you consider traffic jams and the like. The smokies have lots of places to hike and explore, but I think Townsend is a better place to go for that enjoyment. There you can hike, or go tubing and you are dealing with locals rather than mostly tourists. Its part of the smokies, just a hair less touristy. Likely because the only attractions there are nature rather than hotels and rides etc...
 

GT4times2

Moderator
CMS-GT4":1tirs0k7 said:
Yeah, 7th gen vs 6th gen, I think the 7th gen is likely the best handling fwd celicas made. I like the look of the 6th gen better, but the price of the two are pretty close these days. At least up here. Hell even plain 5th gens are not much cheaper than either. So the 5-7 gen celicas are pretty close priced.

I think if I had the spare cash laying around I would just get a g35 sedan to use as a car to run down to tn with the family. I can drop them off and then go play on the dragon. I don't think there is any way we will ride down in the alltrac as long as car seats are involved. Maybe I just need to start making bank, then I can buy an ATS-V. That would suit us both.

My next trip down to TN, I am going to go check on this geo metro my dad has laying around. I had already dreamed of making a mid engine sleeper with it, but it might actually be a simple fun fwd car if I can find a decent cheap engine to toss into it. I can either look at the suzuki turbo option, or I can look at a honda swap. Of course a motorcycle engine isn't out of the question. I only want the thing to have a front lsd.


Either Gens, you can't go wrong. However with the 7th Gen, it has a decent power plant to begin with. Lighter than the other models too. Better power to weight ratio. Better aftermarket too. Food for thought.
I thought you were done with swaps and such. :shrug: Turning the Geo Metro into a Suzuki Cultus is a project in itself. Interesting though.

http://www.uk-ssgti.com/t123-for-those- ... af34s-1989

Ah, the ATS-V!! Great cars. Putting the Germans in check at the track. Really nice platform. I like the CTS-Vs too. I can see one (or an IS-F) in my future. :)
Don't know when though. Can't beat a 4dr sedan with all that power out the box. Minor bolt-ons, and that's a low 11 sec car. I've seen many at the track in the 10s.

I'm still looking at areas to go other than Pigeon Forge. If not, Pigeon Forge, it will be. Looked at Crossville,TN for boar and wild turkey hunting excursions (2.5 hrs away from North Atlanta). If you know of any, closer to GA, please let me know. PM me if you know of any. Thanks in advance.
 
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