1993 Alltrac conversion

So I own this 1993 Celica GT convertible. Its an automatic and has the 5SFE engine we all know and love.
My father and I decided to convert it to 4WD one day. We first came up with the idea because we saw the RWD prop shaft space in the back floor. We then remembered an episode of Initial D where Takumi raced a GT4 Celica and then it hit us "We should make it like that!".

Ever since we have been doing research and finding out more and more. We know that the engine used in the GT4/Alltrac Celica's are called the 3S-GTE. They are turbocharged and are some of the most potent engines Toyota made. We have seen prices of them with trannys attached for about $1600. $4000 - $5000 is about the most were willing to spend on the conversion and I really need some help from you guys. I would like to know what all I would need to get an "aging" 1993 Celica to become the alltrac beast that it can become.

Thanks again.

Long story short, it isn't possible for that budget. Very few people have successfully converted a 2WD Celica to 4WD, but a few thousand have considered/asked about it.

For 4 to 5000, actually you are better off starting with an original gt4. You can find decent ones for the price.

Goodluck!

Bryan

Oh

Well, what could we do to make it faster just as the FWD car that it is?

You could swap a 3sgte in it and leave it fwd.

underscore":16ao34ee said:

Long story short, it isn't possible for that budget. Very few people have successfully converted a 2WD Celica to 4WD, but a few thousand have considered/asked about it.

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I agree. If you have VERY GOOD fabrication skills, all the tools, etc. the budget is still less than just the parts cost.

-Charlie

Ok, well after discussing it, It seems we can spend a little more. How does 7k - 8k sound? We have already dumped around 8K into it already so there is no selling it and then getting a GT4. No backing down, and besides, has anyone ever heard of a convertible alltrac?

I see you're in Atlanta, GA therefore finding a real alltrac will be not impossible for you. Have a look: viewforum.php?f=14

I recommend you buy a real alltrac save yourself the time/money/frustration on doing the conversion.

Once you have an alltrac sink your money into making that car less slow. 8)

In rereading your last post maybe you should just half-trac your car and put in a 3SGTE and be done.

You can build a pretty fast car as a halftrac with your 7k budget.

Biggest costs will be the 3sgte itself (1500, and just stick with the 2nd gen), clutch/fw, turbo, and ems.

Then you'll need fuel, etc.

Bryan

I've owned both, after I bought my first All-Trac I held onto my GT for a number of years because I really enjoyed the way it handled much more, they feel much lighter (because they are), the only disadvantage to the GT platform is that you can lose grip easily with the FWD. If you're not worried about drag racing, then it's not really a problem. If you want a really good compromise, get a rear wheel drive MR2, which are pretty plentiful, you can get more car for the money with those, IMO. I still have an All-Trac because I like the looks and the prestige of having a rare car, it is a lot of fun to drive, the seats fit me like a glove and it did frustrate me to lose grip starting from a standstill, even when I wasn't trying or accelerating quickly, so look into different solutions for more traction, less slip. I don't know if there is an LSD for GT's. Oh yeah and I never wanted to bother with the swap, especially with experiencing the grip issues.

Now I remember why I hate FF's!

Oh well.

TakumiRolla":2g6mg5u2 said:

besides, has anyone ever heard of a convertible alltrac?

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Hate to be the bringer of bad news but there is already one. Its posted on here somewhere. Its from europe.

Yup.

A red convertible and a white T-top (SW20 swap) CS. Maybe other that I don't know as well.

It is possible, but as everyone stated, hope you have deep pockets or a lot of fab skills. The whole rear of the floor pan would have to be cut, then you would need a doner car to get the right floor with the sub frame mounting. That would be the correct way to "convert", any other method is going to take a ton of custom fabrication to support the rear subframe and all it's components.

You guys like to weld, right?

Oh.

We are prepared to spend a lot of time on this. I am 14 and summer is coming up so I will have a lot of time on my hands.

There is already a channel for the driveshaft, etc. in the back. Does anybody have pictures of the back of the Alltrac vs. the Celica? I cant seem to find any on Google images. :I

From what I can tell, you all are just saying that its time consuming, not impossible.
I don't want to keep being told that its hard. I knew that. Does anyone have a list of parts. If anybody here has done it, can you give me a list of stuff that you worked with?

I think people are trying to not necessarily warn you that its hard but that if you don't have the skills you will ruin your car and possibly make it very unsafe for yourself as well as cost vs completion. Just time vs cost buying an alltrac makes more sense. A lot of people want to do this sort of thing, but don't have the mechanical knowledge to really make it happen.
The big thing you need is the drive shaft, mounts, whole rear end and rear floor pan. You can buy a 205 floor pan new from a dealer. I think they were about $400 or so last time I looked. I am sure there is more, but you will likely not discover these things until you are deep into the project.
To me, I think to go through all this trouble I would not had even bothered with awd. I would had done a rwd conversion and possible a larger engine.

EDIT: You also need a gas tank, or you got to go with a fuel cell.

There is already a channel for the driveshaft, etc. in the back

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That channel is for the exhaust and would not fit the drive shaft without modification. As was already mentioned you will need to remove the whole rear floor pan and replace it with one from an alltrac, im sure you could fab something up but not sure how safe it would be. Keep in mind the gas tanks are mounted in completely different locations so you would need a fuel cell or a alltrac gas tank (in addition to the alltrac rear floor pan).

Does anybody have pictures of the back of the Alltrac vs. the Celica? I cant seem to find any on Google images.

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The problem with our cars is they are pretty rare so even simple things like pics of the back are often hard to come by. Lucky for you most of us on this forum are willing to snap a few pics of our cars when asked to do so.

Im all for people trying new things and your project sounds interesting but when you say things like " could someone just give me a list of what is needed to do blank" it sounds like you dont really know what your getting yourself into. I dont say that to be offensive so I hope you dont take it the wrong way, its just that most of us on here have see this kind of request a million times and very little ever comes out of it...which should tell you how incredibly hard but more importantly expensive it would be to do this kind of thing not to mention the safety issue. I would hate to have you tear into your car, get half way through and run out of money, time, patience, or interest. What your proposing can be done, and has been done......but only a few times which again should tell you something especially considering how often this has been considered by very capable individuals.

If your dead set on doing it make sure you do your own research first then ask questions. For example I would start with picking up Toyota factory manuals and electrical manuals for both the alltrac and the model you currently have (check ebay). Next I would study the diagrams to note as many differences as possible, just form that it should become clear what parts you need. The reason that people have a hard time answering that question is we really dont know what is needed, we can guess but that is about it. Your next issue will be sourcing those parts, so either find a wrecked alltrac (not so easy to do now days) or look into the jdm market for half cuts or rear cuts. Next make sure you have the nessesary tools that go beyond a basic garage, im thinking probably a lift and a welding rig would be needed. Lastly remember its not that we are saying its hard (thats a given) so much as it will become extremely expensive if you have to be subing out a ton of fabrication work, if you can do it yourself then not a problem but realize we are not talking about your basic welding skills.

If I were you I would start with doing a 3sgte engine swap first, cut your teeth on that and then reevaluate if you still want to continue. Some times it makes it easier to do these kind of builds in stages so instead of doing the engine swap and drive train conversion all at once you could break it up. Trust me when I say it helps with motivation if you can get one thing done and enjoy it first before you rip into the next project (coming from the person who has been in a propetual state of project building for the last 4 years and has yet to drive the car). People on this forum can be great help if they think that your serious but if it looks like someone is not willing to put in the time to do their own research they can tend to be kinda negative ( not nearly as bad as most forums though). You will also notice that people on here often tend to just tell people to "just buy an alltrac, its cheaper". This actually really annoys me because who said you want an alltrac, at lease in your situation you just want an allwheel drive trubo'ed convertible. As for your request for pics of the rear end let me know exactly what you want and ill see what I can do as I have a stock gts (5sfe engine), 91 swapped gts (3sgte engine) and a 90 Alltrac.

Good luck, I think it could be a cool project if your able to pull it off.

I really hate to sound like a jerk but this:

TakumiRolla":abqppwp7 said:

I am 14 and summer is coming up so I will have a lot of time on my hands.

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makes me think we're wasting our time with some kid's pipe dream.

No its not impossible and likely nobody will give you a list of parts to go out and buy because nobody has had the budget or sanity to do it PROPERLY.

You want to do it 'right'?
Buy all the alltrac floorpans, body members and bracing -firewall to trunk- from Toyota (if they still sell them) for about $4000-$5000 or build your own from scratch, next you'll have to buy an alltrac engine/drivetrain from an importer, then you'll need to worry about suspension, gas, exhaust, intercooling, alltrac hood, prop shaft & mounts, supplies... need I go on?

If you seriously must do this project I would recommend you set aside $10000-15000 minimum and a LOT of time, much more than just one summer.
/rant off/ :evil:

If your car is clean and you like it PLEASE don't hack it to bits over the idea that turning it into another car entirely would be cool.

Sorry about the heavy dose of reality but it's better to get it now rather than once you've stripped your car to nothing and your bank account is empty.

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Now, to dispel some myths for people in the future that consider this type of swap; while the celica family of cars share many similar parts the bodys are NOT SIMILAR and were all purposely designed as such. I have a copy of the "Celica Chassis and Body Repair Manual" and the alltrac is entirely different and more robust than any other model produced. The driveshaft/exhaust tunnel you may think you see on other celicas floorpan is in fact there for Toyota's 4WS and hydraulic lines for the Active Suspension systems that were available overseas, nothing else.

I'd like to recommend that we get a new subforum where people can post up specifics for alltrac conversions or mods should just delete these threads.
Can we move this one to Other All Tracs or Off Topic for now?