Warracer's mild street project.

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Re: Warracer's mild street project.

Postby underscore » Mon Nov 03, 2014 4:43 pm

MWP wrote:The roads they rallied on were just public tarmac roads, no different to your everyday roads anywhere else.
Yes, most of us aren't rally drivers, but that doesn't mean the car setup does not apply.

I just think its *very* short sighted to discount tried, tested & world championship winning TTE setup info, and trust Japanese tuning house suspension setups that were most probably created in a excel spreadsheet.


All true, but whenever I see a rally driver on tarmac they're clipping corners into the dirt and sliding the back end around which we won't be doing. The TTE setup is probably a good starting point for our cars but I have a feeling that due to the differences in chassis setup and the driving style their setup is probably a little softer (at least in the front) than what we would want.

At the end of the day though, the skills (or lack of) possessed by normal people are going to make a much bigger difference in the effectiveness of the car than subtle suspension changes.
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Re: Warracer's mild street project.

Postby CMS-GT4 » Mon Nov 03, 2014 6:52 pm

There is lots of claims online for ages mentioning a SS setup on the 185, but no images. If I can locate my st185 rally dvd there are pit workers taking bits off the car. I will look at it and take screen grabs and then we can find out once and for all. I would not be surprised if there was at least some instances of it used on a 185 for the very least of developing and testing before 205 production.
Weversport, who sells TTE stuff only carries Mac for all the toyota chassis. Celica-corolla.

I do not think you can fully copy the tte 185's performance with knowing just a few specs. There are a lot of factors involved in the dampeners, corner weights, bump steer etc... Plus I am sure the more advanced awd system the rally car had might have some factors in suspension setup as well. I will experiment though and likely lower my front spring rate being closer to what the rally car lists. From my experience on anything less than a perfect track I am finding the 10kg fronts to cause traction issues on bad pavement.
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Re: Warracer's mild street project.

Postby MWP » Tue Nov 04, 2014 1:14 am

underscore wrote:All true, but whenever I see a rally driver on tarmac they're clipping corners into the dirt and sliding the back end around which we won't be doing.


Speak for yourself :P

I was doing exactly this yesterday arvo on some nice semi-abandoned hills roads :)
I was doing some ECU tuning, and testing my new front strut compression damper settings.
The Koni 8611's are looking very promising with their digressive compression valving. More setup to do though.

underscore wrote:At the end of the day though, the skills (or lack of) possessed by normal people are going to make a much bigger difference in the effectiveness of the car than subtle suspension changes.


Quite true, but it really does depend on how you drive the car.
If you like going fast around corners, a bad setup becomes obvious very quickly.

CMS-GT4 wrote:I do not think you can fully copy the tte 185's performance with knowing just a few specs. There are a lot of factors involved in the dampeners, corner weights, bump steer etc... Plus I am sure the more advanced awd system the rally car had might have some factors in suspension setup as well. I will experiment though and likely lower my front spring rate being closer to what the rally car lists. From my experience on anything less than a perfect track I am finding the 10kg fronts to cause traction issues on bad pavement.


I do actually have a full TTE tarmac car setup sheet (springs, damper, camber, caster, toe, rollbar, arm lengths, etc specs)... and no, im not sharing it (yet).

My front setup now is 475lb/in, Koni 8611-1259, ~5deg of caster (using T3 tops), ~2deg of static camber (crash bolts) and the factory anti-rollbar.
The Koni rebound setting is about 1/3rd, and compression is 9 clicks (out of 12).

I found some very bumpy tarmac corners and loaded up the suspension as much as i could (ECU logged me cornering at about 0.9G).
It handled it quite well considering. I think my springs are a little short (200mm) which means they are at full compression about 10mm too early (bumpstop hadnt fully compressed).

I think with 250mm springs, and and an extra click or two on the compression damping it'll be as good as this setup will get without some serious data analysis.
I am planning to fit linear strut position sensors at some point so i can tune them properly.
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Re: Warracer's mild street project.

Postby CMS-GT4 » Tue Nov 04, 2014 1:42 am

Why only two degrees of camber, and why not not using the t3 top plate for camber?
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Re: Warracer's mild street project.

Postby MWP » Tue Nov 04, 2014 1:49 am

Because caster = dynamic camber.
Its far better to have dynamic camber than static camber.
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Re: Warracer's mild street project.

Postby CMS-GT4 » Tue Nov 04, 2014 2:36 am

Have you measured bump steer with that much caster? I assume you maxed out the caster on the plates. Did you get the alignment checked at a shop or with your own tools? I got around 3 degrees off my home tool measurements but I had not taken it in to verify my measurements. There is a good chance my measurements were wrong.
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Re: Warracer's mild street project.

Postby MWP » Tue Nov 04, 2014 12:02 pm

No i havent.
I'll get a proper wheel align sometime soon.
I just did a string-align to 0deg up front.
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Re: Warracer's mild street project.

Postby CMS-GT4 » Tue Nov 04, 2014 5:23 pm

I am curious on the bump steer with increased caster. Some chassis can take a lot of caster, like the sti, and some increase bumpsteer issues when adding a little. Sadly there is not enough published info on our chassis to know what will happen. Are you running fender liners? I had to take mine off after adding the t3 tops since it caused my larger tires to rub them. I am considering additional caster by moving the lower arms out to keep the wheels more in center with the wheel well, which will minimize fender liner modification and potential rub.
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Re: Warracer's mild street project.

Postby bajallama » Tue Nov 04, 2014 8:44 pm

CMS-GT4 wrote:I am curious on the bump steer with increased caster. Some chassis can take a lot of caster, like the sti, and some increase bumpsteer issues when adding a little.


I'm hesitant to think that it will cause more of an issue then that is already present. Your steering angles should technically change slightly (become shallower) but I think whatever downside you can think, the benefits of added caster will definitely overcome. I found it very hard to believe at first that these cars come with almost zero caster. Maybe to offset the steering effort of heavy front end possibly??

The only way I can see to avoid the liner rubbing is to move all of your suspension back or get a narrower/different offset/smaller dia. wheel or lift the suspension :D
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Re: Warracer's mild street project.

Postby MWP » Thu Nov 06, 2014 12:02 pm

Im definitely not noticing any bump steer issues.

If im visualising it in my head correctly, adding caster should help fix bumpsteer thats a result of lowering the car.
Adding caster lowers the position of the tie rod end.
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Re: Warracer's mild street project.

Postby camry90 » Mon Nov 24, 2014 3:17 am

hi!
i'm glad to find someone local. you go to St-eu race track?
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Re: Warracer's mild street project.

Postby warracer » Sun Dec 28, 2014 12:27 am

camry90 wrote:hi!
i'm glad to find someone local. you go to St-eu race track?


Yup, I went once but since Im still in college I don't have that much time on my hands, and the lapping is pricey + time consuming but hey Im graduating in May, then we''ll see some major change and alot more update on this project. But I do go to iCar quite often at the Tarmac Attack event (10$ sprint A to B, unlimited run from 18h-22:30h) that I can afford and its quite fun with friends and comparing our time etc...

http://www.circuiticar.com/evenements/124-tarmac-attack.html

Ill also be attending some Snow Attack events:

http://www.circuiticar.com/evenements/318-snowattack.html

So yeah Ive put around 125'000km on the car in 2.5years of ownership and I definitely plan to add more to that :D
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Re: Warracer's mild street project.

Postby bitterman » Sun Dec 28, 2014 2:09 am

Sounds awesome! I will look into icar next year!
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Re: Warracer's mild street project.

Postby turboms » Thu Jan 01, 2015 5:50 am

That's a very nice project. I'm glad someone made a good use of those parts I fabricated for my car a few years ago (manifold, I/C plumbing, exhaust). When are you planning to put the VF28 back? :)

I like ihi turbos. Just made a twin scroll manifold for my RC and installed a bettered version of the IHI VF36 to which I grafted a larger billet wheel. That thing hit full boost (15psi) at 2300 rpm and keep pulling like a raped ape all the way to the redline.
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Re: Warracer's mild street project.

Postby warracer » Sun Jan 18, 2015 7:46 am

I don't think ill go with the vf28 I might go with a Tomei Arms M8265... Who knows at this point I can't buy anything until summer so I still have plenty of time to think about it :D
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-Cometic Metal HG -Supra TT Fuel Pump
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