turbo V6, AUS Delivered St185, track car

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turbo V6, AUS Delivered St185, track car

Postby fibrewizard » Fri May 01, 2015 8:46 pm

just starting thread so I can fill it in later,


pics and info to come,

Australian delivered st185, widebody,

3vzfe mated to gt4 transmission....
gt35r .63 rear .70 comp.

stripped out, car will be built for time attacks and trackdays, motorkhanas etc....
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Re: turbo V6, AUS Delivered St185, track car

Postby fibrewizard » Sat May 02, 2015 1:34 am

to start with here is a pic of the gt4 transmission, bolted to the 3vzfe,

Image

a not so commonly known fact is the 3vzfe and 3sgte use the exact same clutch.....

the completed 3vzfe in my st184
Image

transfer case modifications....
Image

Planned turbo...
gt35r .63/.70
Image

Block mods
Image
Image
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Re: turbo V6, AUS Delivered St185, track car

Postby MWP » Sat May 02, 2015 1:06 pm

:D
Its good to see you posting here.

I think i've asked before, but ill ask again anyway... why a 3vz over a 1mz or other possibly suitable series (gr?).
The rather heavy 3vz is going to hurt handling with what is already a too front heavy car with the 3s.
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Daily: Celica GT4 ST185 (~170kw/atw)
Project: Toyota RA28 '77 Celica (1UZ-FE powered)
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Re: turbo V6, AUS Delivered St185, track car

Postby fussellbug » Sat May 02, 2015 7:40 pm

I don't know the OP's reasons for the 3VZ but this post makes a good case for it being better then the 1MZ:

http://www.midshiprunabout.org/mk2/why-the-3vz-fe-is-the-best-toyota-v6/
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Re: turbo V6, AUS Delivered St185, track car

Postby fibrewizard » Sun May 03, 2015 7:40 am

MWP, nice to be posting I have been a regular reader of posts in here so its good to be able to post now that I have a reason too.....

the reason for the 3vz.....

purely comes down to stock block strength, 6 bolt mains cradle, meaning the mains bearing caps are part of an entire CRADLE that adds a mass of strength and that is found in most of Toyotas Big power engines,

in standard form the 3vzfe can hold a mild amount of boost but naturally being alloy head and cast block the weakness is in the headgaskets, and head studs which can be overcome with 4g63 arp headstuds and modified MLS steel head gasket, which will enable it to handle above mild boost and reliably do so.....

being a FAMILY car engine my thoughts is that it has been overlooked...

my thoughts wont be shared by many at all, and I understand that but hopefully I can open some eyes, or fall flat on my face, either way im gonna have fun trying.......

there are other option for sure, 1mz, 2grfe, and until I research those options more I am condfident the 3vz is the best current option for the 4WD configuration, and retain as a manual, the 2rgfe out of a Rav 4 would be perfect, but there are NO manual 4WD versions that I have found, so an option would be to research an option to make the rav 4 transfer case fit to a manual transmission..... so I will continue to research and if any one has any ideas or knowledge or avenue of resource fo me that would be greatly appreciated.......
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Re: turbo V6, AUS Delivered St185, track car

Postby fibrewizard » Sun May 03, 2015 7:51 am

MWP wrote::D
Its good to see you posting here.

I think i've asked before, but ill ask again anyway... why a 3vz over a 1mz or other possibly suitable series (gr?).
The rather heavy 3vz is going to hurt handling with what is already a too front heavy car with the 3s.



the weight gain from the 5sfe to 3vzfe conversion was 58kg weight gain, which can be offset by weight loss in a race trim car, and understeer dialled out with suspension settings.....

base for base the 3vz is on par with a 3s for stock power n/a vs turbo, granted the 3s is easier to gain power with bolt ons, but wheres the fun in that....I will save the ease of bolt ons for my gt86.....

for me a gt4 build will be as much hands on and creating as I can, more of a project then a bolt bolt on project if that makes sence, and no disrespect to others, I find it more satisfying to create....
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Re: turbo V6, AUS Delivered St185, track car

Postby fibrewizard » Sun May 03, 2015 8:36 am

fussellbug wrote:I don't know the OP's reasons for the 3VZ but this post makes a good case for it being better then the 1MZ:

http://www.midshiprunabout.org/mk2/why-the-3vz-fe-is-the-best-toyota-v6/



thanks I have read that, but I lost the link, thanks
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Re: turbo V6, AUS Delivered St185, track car

Postby st182er » Sun May 03, 2015 10:16 am

you still active on ozcelica bro?
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Re: turbo V6, AUS Delivered St185, track car

Postby fibrewizard » Sun May 03, 2015 10:20 am

st182er wrote:you still active on ozcelica bro?



not in a while but will be soon, I have dropped in from time to time,

speaking of which I will hop on now
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Re: turbo V6, AUS Delivered St185, track car

Postby psipwrd » Sun May 03, 2015 11:41 am

Nice build, the engine looks good in there. I want to see 600 ft lbs at 4000 rpms!
1992 Toyota Celica GT-Four CS (#4025)
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Re: turbo V6, AUS Delivered St185, track car

Postby fibrewizard » Sun May 03, 2015 11:38 pm

Wouldn't that be wild, lol......I have no huge expectation, will build and see what I get,
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Re: turbo V6, AUS Delivered St185, track car

Postby fussellbug » Mon May 04, 2015 10:13 am

will the modification to the block require trimming the oil pan too? Do you think there will be any issues with sealing the pan on that narrow section?
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Re: turbo V6, AUS Delivered St185, track car

Postby fibrewizard » Mon May 04, 2015 1:50 pm

Yes, trimming oil pan also required, I have a fix in mind for this, will wait and see how it goes and I will publish once completed
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Re: turbo V6, AUS Delivered St185, track car

Postby MWP » Mon May 04, 2015 3:01 pm

fussellbug wrote:I don't know the OP's reasons for the 3VZ but this post makes a good case for it being better then the 1MZ:
http://www.midshiprunabout.org/mk2/why-the-3vz-fe-is-the-best-toyota-v6/


I wont say any of that is outright incorrect, but it is of little concern. Very amateurish stuff.
ECU stuff doesnt matter. Any serious use is going to use an aftermarket ECU.
The resistance to det thing means nothing. More advance without det != more power.
Huge gains from head porting means its an average head to begin with.
etc, etc.

fibrewizard wrote:the weight gain from the 5sfe to 3vzfe conversion was 58kg weight gain, which can be offset by weight loss in a race trim car, and understeer dialled out with suspension settings.....


60kg is a lot to loose over the front axle. You cant really do it without major front end work (fibreglass everything, spaceframe front end, etc).
Any suspension setups you make to help handle that extra weight, also would have made the car a lot faster if you didn't add that weight.
It aint that easy.

You've selected an engine thats great for reliable bulk power, but *will* hurt handling... and the events you want to do are exactly where you need great handling over power :(
Its like the guys who put heavy & long JZ's in their 70's Celicas, Corollas then want them to go fast around corners. It just doesn't work that way.

base for base the 3vz is on par with a 3s for stock power n/a vs turbo, granted the 3s is easier to gain power with bolt ons, but wheres the fun in that....I will save the ease of bolt ons for my gt86.
for me a gt4 build will be as much hands on and creating as I can, more of a project then a bolt bolt on project if that makes sence, and no disrespect to others, I find it more satisfying to create....


Great attitude :)
I do really want to see how this all works out for you.
My collection of GT4 documentation: http://gt4.mwp.id.au
Daily: Celica GT4 ST185 (~170kw/atw)
Project: Toyota RA28 '77 Celica (1UZ-FE powered)
Chairman of the SA Classic Celica Club.
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Re: turbo V6, AUS Delivered St185, track car

Postby fibrewizard » Tue May 05, 2015 9:12 am

MWP wrote:
fussellbug wrote:I don't know the OP's reasons for the 3VZ but this post makes a good case for it being better then the 1MZ:
http://www.midshiprunabout.org/mk2/why-the-3vz-fe-is-the-best-toyota-v6/


I wont say any of that is outright incorrect, but it is of little concern. Very amateurish stuff.
ECU stuff doesnt matter. Any serious use is going to use an aftermarket ECU.
The resistance to det thing means nothing. More advance without det != more power.
Huge gains from head porting means its an average head to begin with.
etc, etc.

fibrewizard wrote:the weight gain from the 5sfe to 3vzfe conversion was 58kg weight gain, which can be offset by weight loss in a race trim car, and understeer dialled out with suspension settings.....


60kg is a lot to loose over the front axle. You cant really do it without major front end work (fibreglass everything, spaceframe front end, etc).
Any suspension setups you make to help handle that extra weight, also would have made the car a lot faster if you didn't add that weight.
It aint that easy.

You've selected an engine thats great for reliable bulk power, but *will* hurt handling... and the events you want to do are exactly where you need great handling over power :(
Its like the guys who put heavy & long JZ's in their 70's Celicas, Corollas then want them to go fast around corners. It just doesn't work that way.



I will respectfully disagree but not on everything....

how much extra would 3sgte and awd transmission way more then the 5sfe, I would imagine without weighing, ( which now that I think about it, I might actually do that) an estimated guess would be at least 30-40kg,
3sgte - 3vzfe would be I imagine a 20kg gain,

offset that with lighter bonnet (stock bonnet 25kg), lighter bumper, remove big chunky front reo bar (10kg), tweak suspension, move battery, that 20kg is offset, the only addition to weight would then be the turbo necessities for the v6,
then it would just come down to how it was driven, with good knowledge and some talent the understeer can be overcome if not minimised,

from there any other weight saving that can be done can only have good effect on vehicle weight, handling, suspension and rigidity is also very crucial in this....

so while I agree with some of your points, I also have my own view on many of your concerns, and I guess the proof is in the pudding when all is said and done, so we could banter all we want but we wont know till its done and tested......and if it works out you were right I will shake your hand and apologies.......

I think it will be a balance of both to be honest.......

however lets be realistic, the gt4 isn't the fastest track car, or we would see so many more of them, I imagine the cost to reward is too high, when there are other better base cars out there that can be adapted for less cash outlay to reward.........

I never expect this to be easy, and I am under no assumptions and my head isn't in the clouds...

I like challenging myself and if I wanted a fast track car with ease of modification and cash to reward outcomes I would most definitely gut my gt86 and turn that into the track car,

im not out to set any records, im after a fun, competitive car, not a front row machine.....

I don't mean to step on any toes either, and im all for input and ideas and I appreciate your input and advice,
at least it gives me more areas of thought to minimise and ill effects, time will tell I guess, and please keep checking in on progress, and advice I you feel its needed, I will either leave it or take it on board.....
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