Upgrade path for 1990 All-Trac

JDM GT Four, ST185RC and ST205.

Upgrade path for 1990 All-Trac

Postby Cutha » Fri Jan 07, 2011 9:48 am

Hi,

I just purchased a 1990 All-Trac that is used and abused, though loved at times too :) I have been reading a ton and I try hard not to post in forums with dumb questions. What I need some help with is a basic upgrade path so I don't put the chicken before the egg, or was it the egg before the chicken. Anyway, I want to do things in an order that makes sense. I also have a few questions regarding various upgrades.

This is where it sits now:
-The tranny is crap
-The clutch feels ok
-The engine seems ok, good power, no smoke
-Turbo seems to work, though not nearly the kick I expected
-System 10 stereo - sounds ok, the stock deck was ripped out and although it works they kind of butchered the wiring
--Antenna does not come up

The guy who had it before me had this listed in the ad
Replaced last year:
-KYB struts front and back
-B&G springs (lowered 1 inch)
-front strut mounts
-one of the pipes for turbo
-swaybar links and bushings
-ball bearings


In the end I am hoping to have a 400-500hp car that handles great.

This is what I have come up with so far for upgrades, in sequential order:
1) Transmission - from a ST205 if I can. It would be nice to have a tranny that doesn't grind
2) Supra fuel pump - I read somewhere on this site that this was the most economical upgrade and was good for lots of horse power
3) Upgrade fuel rail and injectors
4) Upgrade turbo and exhaust system
-This is the turbo I was looking at, to start anyway, in the 50 or 57 trim: http://www.turbo-kits.com/celica_alltrac.html
5) ?

I have some questions:

Is an upgraded/modded ECU needed for what I have planned?
Would an upgrade to a ST205 engine be worth the $ and time?
I thought about having the heads shaved to bring the compression up from 8.8:1 to 9.0:1 (which is what the 4th gen of the 3S-GTE is), does this make sense?

Thanks for taking the time to read my rambling and I hope it makes sense.
Seamus
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Re: Upgrade path for 1990 All-Trac

Postby DeeCee » Sat Jan 08, 2011 2:07 am

you'll most likely need:
- a new ecu, no piggy backs or chips
- all your intake and exhaust piping with FMIC - none of the top mount A2A or W2A will support your hp goals
- cams and cam gears
- most likely a balanced forged engine build as the stock won't support your power goals.
- turbo kit + exhaust

there are plenty of threads with people talking about arbitary power goals and to be honest, very few of them get anywhere after their planning.
It costs money to do it right, so don't be stingy. If you got no funds to play, then go get a mustang, slap on some ebay goodness and pull your numbers.

KO Racing do a bolt on turbo kit. Easiest thing is to get that and slap it on with fuel injector/rail upgrade and a decent ECU.

If you are doing all this work, then you may as well stick with the gen2 engine. Plenty of aftermarket engine parts around the place for gen2 as turbo mr2's are common enough.

And your antenna doesn't go up or down because you the person who installed the stereo doesn't know toyota's. Join pink and black together and the antenna will go up and down when you switch on the stereo. check audio section for wiring diagrams.

tbh, as you live in canada, i'd sell the st185 and go straight to the st205. 4 pot brakes, better engine, better everything pretty much..
GT Four Adovansu "I want to enjoy the powerful and nimble agility behavior."

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Elephant: http://www.alltrac.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=26687
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Re: Upgrade path for 1990 All-Trac

Postby Cutha » Sat Jan 08, 2011 10:48 am

Thanks for the info and taking the time to read and reply.

I figured I would need a new ECU as well as a some head work including new cams.

I had to look up what FMIC stood for. I had guessed a fron mounted intercooler was going to be needed because all of the high hp Celica's I could find were using them.

Time will tell if I can hit my hp goals. I have time and I have some money, not enough to do all the upgrades in a couple months mind you! I am a programmer/tech for Siemens and I enjoy a challenge :) I have never driven a car with 500hp so I may find that I am happy with 300hp and stop there. I have ridden sport bikes all my adult life, it's pretty hard for a car to compete with a bike that can do the 1/4 mile in 10s (not that I was ever a good enough rider to achieve those numbers). The problem I found with riding bikes is no car that I can afford will ever really be able to compete with that acceleration.

I could not find any other ECU replacment other than the AEM ones, likely because I have no idea what to look for. Can you suggest any other reliable brands?

I was kind of thinking it would be best to get a used engine and start rebuilding it with all the goodies as time and money permits until I was ready to swap it out.

The guy who did the stereo ripped out the wiring between the head unit and the amp under the seat and pulled new wires. I had assumed they ran it to the amp but maybe they bypassed it... I will have to check out the amp side of things. I had actually already looked at the wiring diagrams for the system 10 I found on here. I attached a diagram I found on here, is the area I circled what you are talking about joining? Or is that the actual signal wire for the antenna? The only two wires that I could find behind the deck is the actual antenaa wire, nothing that looks like it would control the relay for the motor.

On the stereo note, do you know where I would tie in the wire for illumination? Do I have to tie it in on one side of the dash dimmer pot?

I am confused about your comment to living in Canada and getting the st205. I am obviously missing something. Honestly, after trying to figure out what I wanted to do to this car I thought about just getting a newer one and start from their, the problem is the looks of the ST205 really does not appeal to me at all.

Thanks,
Seamus
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stereo-p2 - mod.JPG
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Re: Upgrade path for 1990 All-Trac

Postby tubasteve » Sat Jan 08, 2011 4:15 pm

not sure how far into these cars you are, it sounds like a very new thing to you. first thing i would do is check out gen 2/3 mr2 sites as well for parts and ideas.

for ems people are doing poor boy style ems such as using honda+a, chrome.....adapting honda ecus to run on the toyota.

good luck on your wishes as you are now going all up hill(like myself)
-steve
feb. 1990 alltrac red one: fun machine http://tinyurl.com/Tubasteve
5x114 conversion: http://tinyurl.com/nu3qnez
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Re: Upgrade path for 1990 All-Trac

Postby alltracst185 » Sat Jan 08, 2011 5:55 pm

Cutha wrote:Hi,

I just purchased a 1990 All-Trac that is used and abused, though loved at times too :) I have been reading a ton and I try hard not to post in forums with dumb questions. What I need some help with is a basic upgrade path so I don't put the chicken before the egg, or was it the egg before the chicken. Anyway, I want to do things in an order that makes sense. I also have a few questions regarding various upgrades.

This is where it sits now:
-The tranny is crap
-The clutch feels ok
-The engine seems ok, good power, no smoke
-Turbo seems to work, though not nearly the kick I expected
-System 10 stereo - sounds ok, the stock deck was ripped out and although it works they kind of butchered the wiring
--Antenna does not come up

The guy who had it before me had this listed in the ad
Replaced last year:
-KYB struts front and back
-B&G springs (lowered 1 inch)
-front strut mounts
-one of the pipes for turbo
-swaybar links and bushings
-ball bearings


In the end I am hoping to have a 400-500hp car that handles great.

This is what I have come up with so far for upgrades, in sequential order:
1) Transmission - from a ST205 if I can. It would be nice to have a tranny that doesn't grind
2) Supra fuel pump - I read somewhere on this site that this was the most economical upgrade and was good for lots of horse power
3) Upgrade fuel rail and injectors
4) Upgrade turbo and exhaust system
-This is the turbo I was looking at, to start anyway, in the 50 or 57 trim: http://www.turbo-kits.com/celica_alltrac.html
5) ?

I have some questions:

Is an upgraded/modded ECU needed for what I have planned?
Would an upgrade to a ST205 engine be worth the $ and time?
I thought about having the heads shaved to bring the compression up from 8.8:1 to 9.0:1 (which is what the 4th gen of the 3S-GTE is), does this make sense?

Thanks for taking the time to read my rambling and I hope it makes sense.
Seamus

a CT26 will never get you to the power goals you are going for, you need a GT35R or similar in size at the least! Take a look at my project thread to see what is needed for the 400-500 WHP goal as that is what i'm aiming for 8)
st185- HKS exhaust, Aussie mid pipe and custom 3" down pipe, Tial 50mm BOV, HKS 272 cams, HKS adj cam gears, custom FMIC, HKS GT3040, Tial 38mm wastegate, AEM ems, fully built bottom end, RC 1200cc injectors, at 25 lbs and almost complete :D
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Re: Upgrade path for 1990 All-Trac

Postby DeeCee » Sat Jan 08, 2011 6:27 pm

1) how much work do you want to do yourself
2) how deep are your pockets
3) do you have an area where you can actually work on the car and have it off the road
4) are you handy with tools
5) have you modified cars to this level before?

The reason I ask is that you are asking quite a bit, yet as alltracst185 questions, it does seem new to you.
While not adverse to people asking questions, there are many posts on this forum that have pretty much asked the exact same thing previously, so i would recommend to do a search as well.

As for the st205 comment, the car is better in all ways apart from the styling (which I admit has grown on me in the last couple of years).
It's always better to start from the more advanced platform unless you are willing to spend money to get to where the st205 is. That is pretty much what I'm doing and it is proving to be an expensive exercise.

There are many different aftermarket units to use. I would call around your local shops with dyno tuning and ask what they use for 4 cylinder cars as you will have to send the car to them to tune anyway. If a tuner has an EMS preference, then that is the one to get.

Here in new zealand, they have Link ECU's - atom, storm, extreme
http://www.linkecu.com/

All have plug in adaptors and all you need to do is swap in and swap out using the standard harness, set to gen2 map and send to the tuner. The map is for getting the car going.
The tuner should then be able to do his thing as required.

street brawler kit, 264 in/ex cams, fuel upgrades, ecu, fmic, filter/exhaust upgrades a good clean up and you should have some decent power and fun.
I'm thinking that it comes close to around $5K US for doing it right.. someone else correct me if wrong please.
GT Four Adovansu "I want to enjoy the powerful and nimble agility behavior."

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Elephant: http://www.alltrac.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=26687
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Re: Upgrade path for 1990 All-Trac

Postby Celi-GT4 » Mon Jan 10, 2011 1:37 am

400-500whp is alot. Start out going to 300+ and see how you like it. you will need brakes and suspension,rims tyres etc at that point
12.4 @ 115mph Topeka Kansas NA2005
12.2 @ 109mph blew HG Moroso 1/08
Sold out, now on stock 3rd gen
Blitz ecu, dp,exhaust, tien ss, carbon driveshaft,light wheels/brakes,os giken twin plate
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Re: Upgrade path for 1990 All-Trac

Postby magnum » Mon Jan 10, 2011 5:44 am

http://www.lightspeedinnovations.com/
Lightspeed is a dealer for ViPec. They make a stand alone ECU for the All Trac that plugs into the factory harness.
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1990 Toyota Celica

Re: Upgrade path for 1990 All-Trac

Postby Cutha » Thu Feb 03, 2011 5:43 am

It would be fair to say that I am a complete newbie when it comes to these cars, or honestly really modifying any car. Thanks for the suggestion to check the mr2 sites. I have been reading and learning so much.
tubasteve wrote:not sure how far into these cars you are, it sounds like a very new thing to you. first thing i would do is check out gen 2/3 mr2 sites as well for parts and ideas.

for ems people are doing poor boy style ems such as using honda+a, chrome.....adapting honda ecus to run on the toyota.

good luck on your wishes as you are now going all up hill(like myself)
-steve



I really enjoyed reading your project thread, lots of information in there, very helpful. Brutal though that you car has been in the shop for that long. Thanks for the suggestion on the turbo. I am a little confused on the correct sizing though. I read a thread on another forum about compressor sizing and flow maps, I started to get lost as I got into the article. I will have to read it again.
alltracst185 wrote:a CT26 will never get you to the power goals you are going for, you need a GT35R or similar in size at the least! Take a look at my project thread to see what is needed for the 400-500 WHP goal as that is what i'm aiming for



Thanks for the detailed response. I answered your questions within the your quote in []. I don't like having my time wasted and I don't like wasting others time either, so I try to search and read as much as I can. When I asked this question I actually was not viewing the board correctly and was only looking in "GT Four Chat", I am not sure how I missed the rest of the board. Thanks for the suggestions on getting started.
DeeCee wrote:1) how much work do you want to do yourself [As much as I can, hopefully most of it]
2) how deep are your pockets [lol, never deep as I would like, but I can afford whatever is needed, it just might take some time]
3) do you have an area where you can actually work on the car and have it off the road [not at the moment, but I am working on it]
4) are you handy with tools [yes]
5) have you modified cars to this level before? [no]

The reason I ask is that you are asking quite a bit, yet as alltracst185 questions, it does seem new to you.
While not adverse to people asking questions, there are many posts on this forum that have pretty much asked the exact same thing previously, so i would recommend to do a search as well.

As for the st205 comment, the car is better in all ways apart from the styling (which I admit has grown on me in the last couple of years).
It's always better to start from the more advanced platform unless you are willing to spend money to get to where the st205 is. That is pretty much what I'm doing and it is proving to be an expensive exercise.

There are many different aftermarket units to use. I would call around your local shops with dyno tuning and ask what they use for 4 cylinder cars as you will have to send the car to them to tune anyway. If a tuner has an EMS preference, then that is the one to get.

Here in new zealand, they have Link ECU's - atom, storm, extreme
http://www.linkecu.com/

All have plug in adaptors and all you need to do is swap in and swap out using the standard harness, set to gen2 map and send to the tuner. The map is for getting the car going.
The tuner should then be able to do his thing as required.

street brawler kit, 264 in/ex cams, fuel upgrades, ecu, fmic, filter/exhaust upgrades a good clean up and you should have some decent power and fun.
I'm thinking that it comes close to around $5K US for doing it right.. someone else correct me if wrong please.



I agree with you. My plan is to do some basic mods to hold me over until I am ready to do the big stuff. Currently my plan is to pick up a used motor and rebuild it with high performance parts (bearings, rods, pistons, top end stuff) and then I want to try out one of those new dual scroll BorgWarner EFR Turbo's
Celi-GT4 wrote:400-500whp is alot. Start out going to 300+ and see how you like it. you will need brakes and suspension,rims tyres etc at that point



Thanks for the link, I like the fact they are Alberta. I will have to drive down sometime soon and talk to them.
magnum wrote:http://www.lightspeedinnovations.com/
Lightspeed is a dealer for ViPec. They make a stand alone ECU for the All Trac that plugs into the factory harness.



Do you guys have any magazines you think would be worth reading/subscribing too?
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Re: Upgrade path for 1990 All-Trac

Postby basher590 » Thu Feb 03, 2011 2:15 pm

Hey,

This website is a really good introduction to turbo sizes and applications. It's general information not specific to an AllTrac but excellent source of knowledge.
Hope it helps and good luck.

Chris

http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobyga ... ch101.html
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Re: Upgrade path for 1990 All-Trac

Postby 819_ay » Fri Jun 24, 2011 1:53 pm

for the Ecu, i would suggest you save up some cash for a mines ecu, i bought one and it makes the world of difference, and the car is pretty much stock, new there about 1500$ rebuilt(you send them your old ecu) for about 1200$, and its worth it 100%...
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Re: Upgrade path for 1990 All-Trac

Postby lumbercis » Fri Jun 24, 2011 6:14 pm

thread is all over the place...

start here: http://www.mrcontrols.com/primers/power.htm
Caldina powered...
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