Aftermarket Intake Manifold? . . .

Q&A regarding engines, turbos, and intercoolers and power upgrades

Postby turbotom » Wed Sep 15, 2004 4:50 pm

Hell I'll hire you here for $80 a week pay..... Oh what the heck I'll give you $100/week.

Seriously you probably did not really look at what we are selling. I am not here to flame. Just give info relating what we have to offer. Our intake makes roughly 30-50whp on average. Here is a link to what it has done on one car that ONLY changed the intake.

http://www.mr2oc.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=36352

I honestly do not think you could even make part of a runner for $65. Just in case you feel we do not know what we are doing here is another link to another one of our designs which made power.

http://www.bullishmotorracing.com/gallery/2004/nhra_moroso_4-18-04/index.htm

We set up there old intake which worked but needed a lot of refinement and was unreliable with close to 60psi boost. We established the TB plane and the head flange plane on our CMM (coordinate measuring machine). With that info we designed the runners, plenum, headflange, and fuel rail. The first weekend out with that intake they broke the speed record and starting breaking drivetrain parts proving without a doubt the increase in power was substantial. I hope this helps out anyone who may have been mislead by the previous information.

Oh yeah if a square plenum was so bad then maybe the fastest front wheel drive car in the world would not be using the same extrusion that we are using. I am talking about Lisa Kubo's Saturn. You will see that it has 4x4 square plenum.

I feel this is enough info. If anyone is intersted in the intake or other parts we sell please feel free to call me.

Thanks
Tom
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Postby turbo4wd » Wed Sep 15, 2004 4:54 pm

For those of you who aren't members of the MR2 Owners Board and can't see the link Tom posted, here it is.. I cut and pasted from the original thread..


Hyde's New Dyno
I redynoed Hyde today.
The only changes on Hyde since last year's tune were the addition of a Walbro fuel pump and a Ross Machine Racing Manifold. I know Tom @ Ross and everyone else on here is going to be super excited to see these results since the only real change was just the manifold.

I want to thank Eric and Benny at World Motorsports (Chris Rado's Shop ~ they were awesome to deal with!)

Manifold is here:
http://www.rossmachineracing.com/mr2intake.html
(search show-n-shine" for my threads with the powder coated pics)

Last year: Street tune (29 psi FP): 15 psi (boost) = 258 rwhp
This year: Street tune (30 psi FP): 15 psi (boost) = 302 rwhp
This year: Race tune (40 psi FP): 15 psi (boost) = 312 rwhp
(race tune is a bit more aggressive)

Your eyes are not deceiving you, the manifold made 44 RWHP on a 198,000 mile engine! I do not believe any other manifold has done that.
Here's the kicker. I had a boost leak AND we did not really "tune" the car. We actually used the "tune" NoShoes gave me, but I upped the FP 1 psi.

BIG BOOST
Last year: Race tune (35 psi FP): 20 psi (boost) = 308 rwhp
This year: Race tune (40 psi FP): 20 psi (boost) = 344 rwhp
This year: Race tune (40 psi FP): 22 psi (boost) = 351 rwhp
The lack of big increase from 20 psi to 22 psi is most likely due to the boost leak.

Again this was with a boost leak and we did not make any adjustments on the SAFC or the VPC from last year (lack of time).
There is absolutely more power to be made with the car the way it sits.

Torque actually stayed about the same and I did lose some low- and mid-range power.
You will note on the dynos that in the mid-range it got pretty "fat" (rich) ... so there is more power to be tuned in there, we just did not have the time to look for it today.

I went for a very short ride @ 20 psi after the dyno and I managed to miss every gear! ... the car screams to redline now. Notice no drop off on the graphs, it just keeps climbing. I am going to have to alter my shifting habits to get used to this.
My 235 street tires had zero traction for all of 1st on a heatlhy launch ... :headbang

351 RWHP video (notice the water injection spraying out before the TB, that is where the leak is):
http://www.jekylhyderacing.com/images/hyde_351_dyno.mpg

15 psi & 20 psi dyno:
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22 psi dyno:
Image

Old 15 psi and 20 psi dyno:
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Postby billprice » Wed Sep 15, 2004 5:04 pm

Oh......and guess what? I was sort of wrong when I told you I only got a 35+ wheel horsepower increase. Here is before, and after superimposed on one another. Red line, of course, is before. Blue line is after.

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Postby gearhead313 » Wed Sep 15, 2004 7:06 pm

Im sure there is plenty of time and effort in that manifold and i have seen square tank manifolds make power.... but for $700, i just don't see the cost efficiency in it for me.
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Postby billprice » Wed Sep 15, 2004 7:16 pm

Can't blame you there. I mean, if you can build the same thing yourself for $65 a piece, and you can guarantee it is the same quality that Tom puts out, I'd try to find a backer for your enterprise. Don't limit yourself to 3SGTE engines though. If you can make the same manifold for all the other cars on the market, I'd say you would be well on your way to being the next Roger Penske.

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Postby Conrad_Turbo » Wed Sep 15, 2004 7:16 pm

I haven't been looking mods for the Alltrac for quite some time...but that manifold does look very expensive to produce. You have to think of the CNC time to make the individual pieces and the time to pay a skilled TIG welder to weld it all.

Sure it's damn expensive...but looking at the quality of it...it makes sense to be that price. You can't get a dimond ring for a dollar now can you? Quality costs a lot, and by the looks of it...it is of very high quality (FYI I work as a Quality Assurance Engineer at a very large company). :D
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Postby eric thompson » Wed Sep 15, 2004 9:17 pm

i think that an old 3sge intake manifold (after being extrude honed, gutted tvis) will flow infinitly better than a gte manifold. and it allows for easier piping for a front mount ic. who wants there ic pipe sitting on top of a hot ass valve cover? :shrug:
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Postby alltracman78 » Wed Sep 15, 2004 9:52 pm

alltracman78 wrote:Looks nice, but I'm not too enthusiastic about the square plenum. The change from plenum to runner should be a curve, not a corner.

*The JUN one is really pretty, and looks to be more efficient. Keep in mind a manifold for a MR2 probably won't fit into your car without mod. Also, the manifold probably won't make much difference 'till you get bigger tb/cams/headwork (maybe), ect. :shrug: *


I hadn't noticed the smoothing on the inside. From the outside it looks like a box with runners attached, which to me looks pretty crappy for flow. :shrug: I know air flows like water, which hates little eddies. It prefers smooth transitions. Which the smoothing on the inside would help to create. Maybe a square plenum is better than a rounded one, :shrug: I'm not an expert and never said I was.
As for not fitting, it was a (wrong) educated guess, and thats why I put PROBABLY. I know the MR2 has more room for a intake man, and the JUN won't fit without mods. :shrug:
As for making power, if you put that manifold on a stock engine, I am pretty sure it won't add that much power increase. To really see hp increase, flow has to be raised throughout the engine. When you add cams, header, tb, ect, the sum of the parts is less than the whole. Singly each parts hp increase PROBABLY won't add up to the total increase with all the parts.
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Postby alltracman78 » Wed Sep 15, 2004 10:11 pm

billprice wrote:
alltracman78 wrote:Agreed. I personally wouldn't pay $$$ for a intake manifold that would mess up flow. I am not too sure what the flow charicteristics are of that particular manifold, but I know air prefers to flow in a smooth curve instead of a sharp corner.


Just where are these sharp corners to which you allude? I suppose you would think that if the plenum were round it would flow more? Not. Once you fill the plenum, moving the air FROM the plenum to the intake is where flow dynamics takes place. If you will look at the inside view of the plenum, you will see that all the runners have smooth flowing characteristics. Again, I encourage you to call Tom Ross (410-575-6100), or email him (turbotom@rossmachine.com) and ask him anything you like. Compare cfm or flow ratings btween stock and/or JUN and his manifold. It is a work of art. We got 35+ wheel horsepower more by going to this manifold. I want to stress though, that my stock exhaust manifold was changed at the same time and I do have 264 degree cams, so the extra 35+ horsepower was not from the intake manifold alone! But common sense tells you that you can't pick up 35 wheel horsepower from the exhaust alone either! I think a fair assessment would be 15-20 whp from the manifold, depending on your mods, which would be 18-24 at the crank. Not too bad for your outlay of hard earned money, and the bonus effect of not having the problem of running lean in any cylinder.


I understand the flow isn't constant into the cylinder. However, air does have to flow from the plenum to the runner, and the smoother the better. Maybe the squareness (it DOES have some) helps dampen the air pulses :shrug: Maybe it helps flow, I'm not sure. I never took fluid dynamics in school, I only know a little bit from what I've read.
I am/was sure the manifold is more efficient than stock, and I never said the manifold was a piece of junk (And no, I am not saying anyone said I did). It is nice, and took quite a bit of time to fabricate, I'm sure. I was just posting my preference on what I saw. I never said I knew all about the manifold.
And it is really nice, I just think (from a purely aesthetic point of view) that the JUN is nicer.
As for the intake plenum on Lisa Kubos car, maybe it's the best one possible, and maybe not. I definitly don't know. I do know that just 'cause it's the fastest fwd, doesn't mean there isn't room for improvement. Whose to say that's the ultimate design? Not to say that it isn't, either. Only that it doesn't prove that it is. :shrug:
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Postby alltracman78 » Wed Sep 15, 2004 10:13 pm

BTW, nice little firestorm we got started here. :D
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Postby billprice » Thu Sep 16, 2004 12:22 am

Well, I'm done with it, and I'm pretty sure Tom is too. There is enough information here for anyone who can read to make up their mind what is right and what is wrong. Again, not saying who is right and who is wrong. I just know what the manifold did for my engine. The proof is in the graph. Make your own conclusions. FWIW, most people that know me know that I bought what was billed as "the wordl's largest FMIC" from Paul Rennison. He also had an intake manifold for sale that had a round plenum instead of square that he touted flowed WAY more than the stock manifold (he had a percentage figure, but I can't remember what it was). I almost bought it, but it was $900. It was pretty much a no brainer when I found RMR's manifold. Just my thoughts on it all. I wouldn't hesitate to buy the RMR again if I needed it. There are a lot of people out there that wouldn't hesitate to buy a Toyota again. And there are a lot of people out there that wouldn't hesitate to buy a Honda again. In the end, it is your money and your choice. Choose wisely and choose what you can afford.
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Postby gearhead313 » Thu Sep 16, 2004 12:40 am

ya, im done too. Good info, archive'r up
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Postby Kyoto » Thu Sep 16, 2004 9:45 am

I dont really have anything to add, other than that first plenum (Ross Racing) should be the goods. The guy who runs that company, Tom Ross, built a 400hp SW20 with strictly bolt on mods.

Edit: Whoops. Already been said. My bad! :doh:
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Postby turbo4wd » Thu Sep 16, 2004 1:11 pm

just a side note.. the extrude hone process on an intake manifold will cost about $450.. on top of the cost for the manifold itself.. so gotta figure that into the cost compared to the ross unit..

but yeah.. good info.. and seee.. we kept it civil even.. :lol:
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Postby ChrisD » Thu Sep 16, 2004 2:13 pm

edit
Last edited by ChrisD on Thu May 06, 2010 4:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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