Just got a T3/T04B turbo, what do I need for Fuel?

Q&A regarding engines, turbos, and intercoolers and power upgrades

Postby Zeus » Fri Sep 24, 2004 4:10 pm

yeah thats definately a factor... mr2 guys have better luck... i think some guys fluked into the 300's on stock fuel... but no one recomends it

i think most of those people were atleast using a fpr

my buddies turbo rsx is running 100% duty cycle (eek) on 440's and i can gaurentee he is not at 300wheel... i think he would be the first to admit that...
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Postby gearhead313 » Fri Sep 24, 2004 11:59 pm

its funny b/c it seems like using a FPR is something that isn't commonly done. I think its really imporant to get the base psi up and probably wouldn't try to get serious numbers without one.....maybe not though...




Im guessing that this rsx with maxed out injectors is leaning out? would u know what psi and stuff its at?
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Postby Zeus » Sat Sep 25, 2004 6:22 am

he was running 7psi but when he put on his test pipe it went up to 9 pounds

he is definately leaning out now... i think he said he was running around 12.5(a/f ratio) above 6500rpm and was getting knock...

he has now ordered some 640's to help this

he is running the greddy turbo kit with a hondata for management... it has the tdo5 18g turbo ect
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Postby gearhead313 » Sat Sep 25, 2004 2:23 pm

Zeus wrote:he was running 7psi but when he put on his test pipe it went up to 9 pounds

he is definately leaning out now... i think he said he was running around 12.5(a/f ratio) above 6500rpm and was getting knock...

he has now ordered some 640's to help this

he is running the greddy turbo kit with a hondata for management... it has the tdo5 18g turbo ect


wow.. interesting. Whats the compression stock on the rsx? I never really considered 12.5a/f to be that lean :shrug:
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Postby Zeus » Sat Sep 25, 2004 5:55 pm

my roomate seems to think its 11 to 1

and 12.5 is race gas territory man... 11.8 is my target a/f for the street and ill do 12.5 on race gas with possibly some more timing

maybe im conservative though
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Postby AwdGte » Sun Sep 26, 2004 11:45 pm

12.5:1 is too lean under full load and boost, on pump gas, especially on higher n/a type compression. When I say to lean, let me elaborate ...
When you run high compression and pump gas (and increase boost even more) you throw more gasoline at the cylinder just to absorb heat and try and combat preignition and higher cylinder temperatures. The extra gas does nothing more than act as an absorbent to some of the heat from the high pressures. Retarding the timing (if you have control to do that) also is a good idea, especially around peak torque



gearhead313 wrote:
Zeus wrote:he was running 7psi but when he put on his test pipe it went up to 9 pounds

he is definately leaning out now... i think he said he was running around 12.5(a/f ratio) above 6500rpm and was getting knock...

he has now ordered some 640's to help this

he is running the greddy turbo kit with a hondata for management... it has the tdo5 18g turbo ect


wow.. interesting. Whats the compression stock on the rsx? I never really considered 12.5a/f to be that lean :shrug:
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Postby gearhead313 » Mon Sep 27, 2004 12:35 pm

Ive seen plenty of dyno's where the a/f will swing around 12-12.5. Granted, its probably getting lean for some people, but on the edge is where you make the most power.

I think 9psi on an rsx that is starting with 11:1 compression will need more fuel. That is some very high cylinder pressures your starting to play with and i can see why its starting to pin on the top end! i agree....i would go with the bigger injectors to be safe.
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#3193 - fail
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Postby AwdGte » Mon Sep 27, 2004 5:00 pm

Being on the dyno, and being under full load in real conditions is not the same thing, or even close. I would recommend rereading the part about load, and about how cylinder pressures and temperatures need some of that fuel just to be a heat absorption buffer.

Where as you are referring to what you have seen, I'm offering this out of experience and what I have done/tuned


gearhead313 wrote:Ive seen plenty of dyno's where the a/f will swing around 12-12.5. Granted, its probably getting lean for some people, but on the edge is where you make the most power.

I think 9psi on an rsx that is starting with 11:1 compression will need more fuel. That is some very high cylinder pressures your starting to play with and i can see why its starting to pin on the top end! i agree....i would go with the bigger injectors to be safe.
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Postby Zeus » Mon Sep 27, 2004 5:18 pm

AwdGte wrote:12.5:1 is too lean under full load and boost, on pump gas, especially on higher n/a type compression. When I say to lean, let me elaborate ...
When you run high compression and pump gas (and increase boost even more) you throw more gasoline at the cylinder just to absorb heat and try and combat preignition and higher cylinder temperatures. The extra gas does nothing more than act as an absorbent to some of the heat from the high pressures. Retarding the timing (if you have control to do that) also is a good idea, especially around peak torque



gearhead313 wrote:
Zeus wrote:he was running 7psi but when he put on his test pipe it went up to 9 pounds

he is definately leaning out now... i think he said he was running around 12.5(a/f ratio) above 6500rpm and was getting knock...

he has now ordered some 640's to help this

he is running the greddy turbo kit with a hondata for management... it has the tdo5 18g turbo ect


wow.. interesting. Whats the compression stock on the rsx? I never really considered 12.5a/f to be that lean :shrug:


I agree! which is why i said he is too lean!

and also why i said 12.5 is race gas territory... you def dont want to be running that on pump
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Postby AwdGte » Mon Sep 27, 2004 7:40 pm

I agree with you, I wasn't responding to your post, sorry for the confusion
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Postby gearhead313 » Tue Sep 28, 2004 2:20 pm

I really dont want to argue, but i still think its a wrong statement.

What would do it is some type of proof from people that have blown a motor (melted a piston) and get the account of what a/f ratio they were at.

I'd rather have some good information up for people that might have the same questions..... how credible is 2 different sides just stating their claim.


Im going to try to get a wide band here to put on this civic i have so i can see where im at on it. Its the only boost car i have left running at the shop now.
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#3193 - fail
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#4598 - sold to Canada eh
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Postby AwdGte » Tue Sep 28, 2004 4:03 pm

I don't want to argue either, I will tell you this, besides knowing my information is factual, I have tuned stand alones on the dyno and on the street, particularly the AEM and TEC2. You don't need to have a melted motor to know if their is a difference. After you tune it on a dyno, and you go out on the street, do a long pull and compare the difference in EGT's from the dyno to the street. Watch the EGT's get higher on the street, then your pulls on the dyno, as that is a reflection of load and cylinder pressure. That will give you your confirmation without blowing a motor up.


gearhead313 wrote:I really dont want to argue, but i still think its a wrong statement.

What would do it is some type of proof from people that have blown a motor (melted a piston) and get the account of what a/f ratio they were at.

I'd rather have some good information up for people that might have the same questions..... how credible is 2 different sides just stating their claim.


Im going to try to get a wide band here to put on this civic i have so i can see where im at on it. Its the only boost car i have left running at the shop now.
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Postby Zeus » Tue Sep 28, 2004 8:06 pm

I typically like to play it safe... yes a safer a/f ratio might not be as fast but a blown motor isnt fast at all!

hence why i ran 11.8 a/f ratio and why ill do it again on the new set up :)

in reality im sure you could play with the a/f's till you start to hear some knock and then richen it up... but to me that doesnt leave any room for things like a bad tank of gas ect...
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Postby furpo » Tue Sep 28, 2004 9:02 pm

personally i would consider 12 to 1 for any vehicale using some type of 'supercharger' to be the leanest you would want to go. i personally have get better torque numbers all the way up the power band with more fuel and more ignition rather than less fuel and less ignition. this is to a point of course.

on the mini i am running 12.5 through out and this is an na engine with a dynamic compression ratio of 9.2 to 1. the only difference between pump gas and is the ignition.

a way around having to use rich mixtures is to use water injection. i have not tuned a water injection set up so could someone who has let us know what the difference is?

i find it a pain in the ass to use egts on anything other than the dyno. i find it easier to listen for knock. i only monitor egts cos i can.

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Postby illGT4 » Tue Sep 28, 2004 11:09 pm

furpo wrote:personally i would consider 12 to 1 for any vehicale using some type of 'supercharger' to be the leanest you would want to go. i personally have get better torque numbers all the way up the power band with more fuel and more ignition rather than less fuel and less ignition. this is to a point of course.

on the mini i am running 12.5 through out and this is an na engine with a dynamic compression ratio of 9.2 to 1. the only difference between pump gas and is the ignition.

a way around having to use rich mixtures is to use water injection. i have not tuned a water injection set up so could someone who has let us know what the difference is?

i find it a pain in the ass to use egts on anything other than the dyno. i find it easier to listen for knock. i only monitor egts cos i can.

roger


I'm not sure if this is what you mean or not; so I appologize in advance. (I'm leaning towards you NOT meaning this based on your other ppsts)

Tuning with WI would be a bit dangerous if at some point the WI fails.

11.5-11.8 on pump fuel would be what I'd be aiming for.
Any more and I'd like to call it a race fuel only map.

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