Questions about cams....

Q&A regarding engines, turbos, and intercoolers and power upgrades

Questions about cams....

Postby RedCelicaTRD » Sun Oct 24, 2004 9:49 pm

Ok, so if I remember correctly everyone says that the stock cams are a major restriction and one of the reasons our cars dont pull to well in the upper rpms. Now do you guys think its one of the cams holding us back from making a lil more power or do they both suck? Since the price on cams has gone down im thinking of replacing one and leaving the other one stock do to money reasons and the fact im not looking for a ton more power. Tell me what you guys think and dont just say replace them both.
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Postby Alltracmonkey » Mon Oct 25, 2004 12:46 am

If your not looking for a ton more power, leave the cams be. They will go to over 300 at the wheels. 3S is weak topend stock not because of cams, its the turbo, it's got nothing above 5500 rpms. On the other hand, cams may be a better upgrade over a turbo upgrade because instead of just ramming more boost in your increasing the VE of your engine then in the future when you upgrade other components it will complement them much more. Also if your going for a higher lift/duration cam, you should also do adjustable cam gears and make sure you degree them to get everything out of them.
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Postby Zeus » Mon Oct 25, 2004 3:37 am

Turbo Intake Manifold and Cams are all subject as to why the 3s has poor topend power...

i think first turbo then intake manifold and lastly cams should be the order to upgrade

while cams are great the intake manifold will take care of your top end and most likely for less money.. if you look at Jeff Fazio's Dyno plot before and after the intake manifold you can see what im talking about.. before the intake his power fell off nearing redline.. not very dramatically mind you but still.... after though it kept climbing to redline infact im betting his peak power would even be beyond his stock redline...

now with that being said... you dont NEED cams to make power up top... in actual fact they will give you more power all over but i think with the stock intake mani you're gonna have a restriction in there

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Postby Alltracmonkey » Mon Oct 25, 2004 3:32 pm

Just wanted to say that jeffs plots werent on a stock motor though, he was already at 300 at the wheels...
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Postby ChrisD » Mon Oct 25, 2004 11:38 pm

His street tune on pump gas was only 250whp. After the manifold he went to 300.

But yeah, I agree with everything Mr. Zeus said. :)
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Postby Alltracmonkey » Tue Oct 26, 2004 1:01 am

Ok 250 whatever, hes got a t3/t4 exhaust and an intake, what makes you think that manifold would react that way on the ct26? the guy doesnt want a ton more power and is on a budget, so he probably wouldn't upgrade the turbo, so a manifold wouldn't do him any good because the ct26 falls on it's face like i said in the first place. Like zues said cams will give you more overall power therefore would probably be the best upgrade.
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Postby ChrisD » Tue Oct 26, 2004 2:21 am

Thats why I agreed with Blake when he said:

Zeus wrote:i think first turbo then intake manifold and lastly cams should be the order to upgrade


IMHO, no point in upgrading cams or manifold if you are using the stock turbo. You will see much better results if you take care of the turbo first. Once that is done, you will possibly be in a position to take advantage of an intake manifold and or cams.

:)
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Postby OlyST185 » Tue Oct 26, 2004 2:23 am

zeus, are you sure its not just the throttle body who make a restriction, that tb is freakin small, i am considering fitting an 7MGTE throttle body. i have a machinist workin on this already. if its really the intake, then we shall try to do one.
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Postby Alltracmonkey » Tue Oct 26, 2004 2:50 am

Well, guess it comes down to what he wants to do, either increase the ve of his engine or run a bigger turbo on an engine that isn't prepared for it. People pull out the turbo upgrade way to soon IMO. So many broken engines because of it to.
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Postby RedCelicaTRD » Tue Oct 26, 2004 6:03 am

Ok people, the question was what cam sucks the most or do they both suck and only upgradeing one is pointless. I dont care about intake manifolds or turbo setups since I already know what I'm going to do. I guess I was unclear when I said a lil more power, I ment a lil more power then the stock cams can provide. I don't mean to be an ass but lets keep it to the topic at hand.
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Postby BoostedBlueToyotas » Tue Oct 26, 2004 11:10 am

my 2 cents ==>

Just pushing up boost causes problems, you have to add fuel and
then you have to control the fuel

I would go with full 3" exhaust, intake, and boost controller, with
the exhaust you will find that it pulls a lot harder in the upper
rev range.

Then I would go with cams and intake because they will increase your
power from there without going crazy with boost

Then upgrade the turbo, decide if you want to increase boost, add fuel,
EMS etc ....



Basically I have ==>

HKS 264 cams, HKS valve springs, Aussie 3" exhaust to shift power
peak further up the rev range

Ross Intake, Wolfkatz fuel rail, WTA intercooler. These are to improve
efficiency/air flow and to prevent found problems that lead to
detonation

Finally I have a Ct20b which will run at lower boost (14-16 lbs)

Stock injectors (balanced) and ECU [may sub a VPC and FCON that
I have later]
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Postby Zeus » Tue Oct 26, 2004 1:25 pm

RedCelicaTRD wrote:Ok people, the question was what cam sucks the most or do they both suck and only upgradeing one is pointless. I dont care about intake manifolds or turbo setups since I already know what I'm going to do. I guess I was unclear when I said a lil more power, I ment a lil more power then the stock cams can provide. I don't mean to be an ass but lets keep it to the topic at hand.


tis a shame chrisk or Illgt4 arent in here to answer this question...

hold on ill look it up... haha well i guess you wont hold on youre going to read it in the same post :P

*goes looks it up*

now I dont have all the reasons for it... but its looking like it benefits us to have a larger intake cam then exhaust cam... all this has to do with the 3s head design... and also that hks cams are designed as NA cams (that one cam as a suprsie to me) apparently when you have both 264's they arent as aptly suited... this info is comming from chrisk someone who def knows his shit...

now with that being said.... thats talking about aftermarket cam shafts not stockers... the stockers will not have the overlap problem as they are designed for a turbo application...

the 3rd gens got a *slightly* larger cam on one side... i think following that one would lead to which one would benefit more...

Unfortunately i dont know which it is off the top of my head...

my personal thoughts on running the staggered cam set up?

well unless you are going for both aftermarket cams i doubt it would be in your best interests two run just one upgraded cam... if you ARE going to do it... im betting that running a 256 cam would be a better way to go than just a signle 264... stock duration is 236 if i remember correctly.... with 8.2mm lift for reference...

now if you want a more expert opinion talk to chris k.. but its my wager that he will say you could see some gains but probably not worth the money

hope that helps
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Re: Questions about cams....

Postby ChrisD » Tue Oct 26, 2004 1:51 pm

RedCelicaTRD wrote:Ok people, the question was what cam sucks the most or do they both suck and only upgradeing one is pointless. I dont care about intake manifolds or turbo setups since I already know what I'm going to do. I guess I was unclear when I said a lil more power, I ment a lil more power then the stock cams can provide. I don't mean to be an ass but lets keep it to the topic at hand.


Well if you already know what you are going to do then why bring it up? We were commenting on the following statement:

RedCelicaTRD wrote:Ok, so if I remember correctly everyone says that the stock cams are a major restriction and one of the reasons our cars dont pull to well in the upper rpms.


We were basically saying that sure the cams are a restriction, however they may not be the first thing that you should attend to. Zeus and I said that turbo and intake manifold will probably be way more effective than cams if you have a turbo upgrade, while Alltracmonkey pointed out that even turbo upgrades might not be the safest thing in the world because people aren't very responsible with them, and therefore cams might be better. Both are reasonable arguements.

Regardless of whether you get a single cam or both, you really wont take advantage of them until you get them tuned. A quote from RickyB:

RickyB wrote:they will make a noticeable difference if you are above 250rwhp or so....Of course, the stock ECU is not going to do a very good job of controlling a car that has large cams and all the other alterations that such a motor would have to have done to it to make such cams worthwhile and safe


Blue_GreyST185 wrote:Just pushing up boost causes problems, you have to add fuel and then you have to control the fuel


You will also find that bigger cams also require more fuel, because they let more air into the engine. (however increased boost has other negative side effects)

Your setup is probably quite nice. :smokes: 20b + cams + intake manifold = big power if you have the tuning :D

Basically my opinion is that the 3SGTE starts to show signs that it is really in need of some breathing room after 250whp. This is why both cams and an intake manifold make such large improvements at this point. However, you need to be able to get to that point, and honestly, it is quite difficult to do this without a turbo upgrade without running very high boost. Therefore, you will probably notice the largest gain from an intake cam only, however you would also see gains from the exhaust cam. I have no clue what the ratio of power is. It probably depends largely on your engine setup. You might gain 5whp more from the intake cam than the exhaust cam. You might also find that using two performance cams has increasing returns...maybe a 264/256 combo if you are looking for a mild staggered setup. This is part of the reason why some people use 272's on the intake and 264's on the exhaust. Personally I think I'd upgrade both.

I think I've answered your question.
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Postby toyotatuner » Tue Oct 26, 2004 11:06 pm

that is what i was goin to run on my 1gen 3sge head a staggered setup. my machine shop guy and i both found out that those cams were a little too big for that head. they didn't fit and were actually hitting the shroud. i had HKS 272/264. heed warning for 1st gen 3sge heads that they will not fit and thus the reason why i sold them.
sux too, wish i did more reading b4 i put money into that head when i could have upgraded to 2gen or 3rd and have cams and shimless buckets. :twisted:
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Postby Zeus » Wed Oct 27, 2004 1:31 pm

turns out the JUN cams seem to be designed more for the 3sgte... im going to look into those more
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