ASI Radiators: Pics P.16; Info P.17 & 18

Q&A regarding engines, turbos, and intercoolers and power upgrades

anodizing

Postby Greybeard » Tue Mar 11, 2008 6:56 pm

You have to explain what "VHT" means to you. It could stand for several things to me.

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Postby **BETSY** » Tue Mar 11, 2008 7:03 pm

VHT = Very High Temp :)
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Postby Greybeard » Wed Mar 12, 2008 1:55 am

No...Radiators need to be anodized, not painted.
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Postby stevo27 » Wed Mar 12, 2008 3:15 am

sorry guys im out i couldnt wait i bought a larger aluminum rad and i dont think the stock size would cool the power i want
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Postby ___Scott___ » Thu Mar 13, 2008 3:03 am

A company I once worked for occasionally had stuff anodized, and it was basically a flat fee for as much stuff as the local metal finishing shop could fit in their tank. I don't know what that fee was, but it would be cheaper for everyone if ASI could do it for the whole batch, or contract with another service to have them done.
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anodizing

Postby Greybeard » Thu Mar 13, 2008 4:42 am

Excellent idea.

I called up a plating shop that does alot of anodizing for the aerospece industry in Tulsa. They have a minimum of a hundred dollars. Talking about sticker shock! He told me that an entire run of fifty or a hundred radiators would not cost that much per item.
In other words, they don't like to do single piece work.

I'll check around tomorrow for someone more reasonable.

BTW: He emphatically told me to have the radiator manufacturer do the anodizing in China. Labor is dirt cheap there. That is the best route.
If the radiator manufacturer hasn't got the necessary inhouse set up, he can very inexpensively contract a finished run of radiators out to a local Chinese plating shop for literally pennies a radiator.


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Postby Dracov » Sat Mar 22, 2008 8:02 pm

Any updates on this? Has the mounting point problem been rectified?
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Postby Rick89GTS » Sat Mar 22, 2008 8:13 pm

All radiators have been sent back to the factory for the mounting correction. I hadn't heard from them for a week, sent them an email and just waiting for another reply. Don't worry, I will update as soon as I hear anything, just be forewarned that it could another month or so.... :shrug:
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Postby Dracov » Sat Mar 22, 2008 9:28 pm

More time is fine by me...means it'll be more likely I'll get up enough money for one. :D
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Postby 86turboswap » Sat Mar 29, 2008 5:17 am

I would prefer to have mine the shiny aluminum. Having it annodized is kinda over the top. I mean we are not driving the space shuttle. I understand the principals & physics of what you are saying but you won't notice the difference on your coolant gauge. I ordered the oversize largest core It should be able to cool my 436hp much better than the stock rad & the stock rad does just fine. I also live in phoenix, AZ where it's over 116 every year & can have montly averages of 110+. Even underhood temps would be somewhat negligible on just a radiator. I am not worried about it at all. I also have a ST185RC vent in my hood tho that helps alot!
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Postby Greybeard » Sat Mar 29, 2008 8:17 am

You, living in Phoenix, probably more than anyone else here, should be worried about about heat problems. I find your statement a bit foolhardy and naive.
But as they say, "A word to the wise is word enough...On the other hand, there are not volumes of books in a library to convince a fool of his folly."

It's your money, do as you wish. It can't affect me, either way.

To the rest of you, Toyota did not do the best job of engineering the cooling in the Turbo All Trac. As everyone of you should know, the tremendous underhood temperatures has baked most of the wiring and gaskets. These cars were put togather to achieve a short term goal by TRD. They were very short sighted on the heat effects on the long run. It's up to us to do what we can to make up for those inadequacies.
If you live in Wisconsin, these things may not affect your car as much. Cold winters are probably foremost in your mind. I live in Oklahoma; We have hot summers. Your car may limp by, but why do it? Heat is the enemy of your engine. An aftermarket engine oil cooler is a great idea to give your engine more life. Cooler underhood temperatures means more horsepower without destroying the engine with too much boost. Anything you can do to cool down a turbocharged engine a few degrees is a godsend to that engine. Any automotive engineer worth his salt will tell you that.
Kids may ignor the little things that make cars run better and last longer...they just want a hotrod they can tear up the road with and if it blows up, well...Daddy will buy them another one. Others of us might think about having our car around tomorrow. I would just caution you to think about doing things that make them last longer, as well as go faster. That is called responsible engineering.



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Postby 86turboswap » Sat Mar 29, 2008 3:47 pm

I find it somewhat funny that you seem to be referencing me to be a fool. I would be willing to bet that I have owned more of these cars & built more High powered GTE's in these cars. I have alot of experience with these cars. I never said underhood temps are not a concern. But annodizing only the radiator is not gonna make a measureable difference. I have ran many cars with KOYO aluminum rads & never could measure any difference in coolant temp or underhood temps. if you want to drop underhood temps put a vent just over the top of the exhaust manifold/Turbo assy. I have an engine bay temp sensor that kicks on fans & the fans rarely run because of my ST185 RC vent. Like I said I understand the concept & if I was building a straight race car I would use a heat dissipating paint on the radiator, several manufacturers make these type of paints. Annodizing does help radiate the heat to a certain degree, But without vents this is actually bad and good at the same time. Bad because it's increasing underhood temps, good because it's helping to cool the coolant. Jet hot the manifold & the turbo housing. and forget about underhood temps. At least were not talking about Chrome. I see so many people running chrome this, chrome that. Chrome retains heat.Were talking polished aluminum.
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Postby Greybeard » Sat Mar 29, 2008 10:37 pm

Perhaps you should reconsider your original post on the subject.

You could have said that you thought black anodizing was a bit expensive for your pocket, instead of saying that you "PREFERED" shiney aluminum (No one in their right mine prefers shiney aluminum as a radiating surface...only a chrome surface would be a better heat retainer).
Indeed, one could apply a sprayed on flat black surface to the tanks as an alternative. That would be superior to a shiney metallic surface.

"the stock rad does just fine" is a fallacy. The OEM radiator does not handle the engine heat well, but just barely.

Your statement about increased ventilation is absolutely correct. The All Tracs do respond well to increased ventilation, and that should always be a improvement that is high on the list. One should local the proper areas of low depression on the exterior and locate your vents there. Next to the base of the windshield is an area of high pressure that is an good area for an inlet.

What I don't want the readers to have is the incorrect concept that heat is not a problem with turbocharged cars, especially the Celica Turbo All Tracs. Increase the airflow thru the engine compartment, add an aftermarket engine oil cooler, and reduce underhood temps by gutting the cat/replacing with a downpipe and/or or insulating the turbocharger exhaust side, cat and exhaust pipe until it is out of the engine compartment will do wonders.
Whether you do any or all of the above is up to the indivdual. But to poo-poo any of the above improvements as not beneficial is foolhardy and naive, especially if you live in a summer hell hole like Phoenix.
Perhaps you might reconsider your prior posts and moderate them.

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Postby Fourplay » Sun Mar 30, 2008 9:36 pm

I'd just like to back up Greybeard and say everthing he has stated is absolutely correct. Ideally this radiator should be anodized black.

The only resaon polished/shiny aluminium is so popular is because it's yet another stupid automotive FASHION.

The vast difference in thermal properties of various colors is well known, if you don't believe this do your own research/experimentation if you can be bothered.

Any object that serves a heat radiating/dissipation function, such as a heat exchanger, should be as dark a color as possible, no exceptions.
Anything less is a compromise and I think everyone here would agree compromises are to be avoided, finances and/or practicality permitting :wink:
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Postby Greybeard » Mon Mar 31, 2008 7:03 am

Thanks, Foreplay.

It's true, all of that infomation about which colors absorb, radiate, insulate and reflect is out there and easy to dig up. This is not new science. If we are going to pay $300 for a radiator, you think that it could be black anodized inexpensively over in China.

Auto Fashions do tend to bring out the challenge in reason in some people. Chrome/bright aluminum under the hood is one of them.

On the other hand, I'm glad my '88 All Trac's exterior paint job is white, except for the hood itself (flat black on both sides). That keeps the interior cooler in Oklahoma's hot summers. My wife's Merker Scorpio and Masda 929 were black. The AC barely kept up...what a waste of fuel. Our Lincoln Towncar is Forest Green. I wish it was white, too. It takes alot of fuel to run that AC.
Gasoline is just going to keep going up. I can easily see $10 a gallon. All of my cars will be parked most of the time. it's a darn good excuse for getting out the bicycle or putting some wear on the soles of your shoes.

Another significant benefit: anodizing make the radiator's surface much harder....Even though it is a very thin layer, it's harder than steel. Aluminum oxide is what a common grey grindstones are made of, be it a powered wheel or a rectangle block held in your hand.
It takes carbide or diamond to cut aluminum oxide.

Always give the Devil his due...86Turboswap did bring out the fact that we have to improve the airflow thru the engine compartment. The additional airflow will cause a little more drag, but is well worth it.
I'd like to put a couple of legitimate vents on the quarter panels near the doors. A couple of small scoops facing the rear should create a bit of negative pressure to pull some heat out. That's a project on down the road.

Talking about the heat retaining/heat reflecting properties of brite aluminum. At first, I put some aluminum foil under the turbo heat shield to reflect the heat back into the turbo. It did keep a minute amount of the underhood temps down. The best results is when I wraped the exhaust side of the turbo and the gutted cat with aluminum foil covered by insulated heat wrap. That keeps the heat out of the engine compartment and into the exhaust system.

I wrapped my house's hot water heater with aluminum foil covered by R-19 fiberglass insulation. That beats the devil out of a thin commercial hot water blanket; The leftover roll of R-19 and aluminum foil didn't coast squat. I judiciously used some duck tape to hold it in place.

You can wrap the rubber/black plastic of the air induction/air filter in aluminum foil to reduce hot engine temperature saturation into the cool air intake side. It would keep the incoming air to the intake side of the turbo a bit cooler. Just remember the point of diminishing returns.

I remember forty years ago when I put an carb spacer on my 1965 Gran Sport Buick. The spacer consisted of several plates of thin aluminum separated by fiber. It raised the Rochester Quadrajet up sevral inches above the intake on the 401ci. It insulated the fuel bowl from the intake's heat and allowed better atomization of the airfuel mixture by providing a longer path into the plenum. It was good for a few horsepower.

For the same above reasons, I wouldn't want the radiator to be brite aluminum. Flat black is the best color to radiate heat.

To clear up things, I wasn't calling 86turboswap a fool, but was pointing out that part of his particular statement on the subject did come across as foolhardy. That is a big difference and I think most reasonable people recognize the difference.

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