st185 3sgte vs st205 3sgte

9

92blackGT4

New member
Is the any differences between the third gen 3sgte and the 4th gen? And what are advantiges if any between them also?

I blew my motor and am going to get a new one and was thinking of the jdm 4th gen 3sgte from the jdm st205 gt-4. What do you think?
 
Sifu

Sifu

New member
This has been discussed many times.

You'll need more than just the engine as the ST205 do not use an AFM. You'll then need the appropriate ECU. Because the ST205 use a different top mount you'll also need a resevoir for your water. BTW the ST205 3sgte is a 3rd gen not 4th.

Besides that they basically bolt up. The 4th gen DO NOT and require work. I don't know how much, I've heard it can be done, I honestly do not think it's worth the trouble.

In regards to what has the better advantage then in stock form the ST205 makes more power. When you mod both engines equally you will see no difference in power.
 
9

92blackGT4

New member
I have an aftermarket ecu, front mount and i will probably build the motor as well. I was mostly wondering how the motor itself holds up if its stronger or if it fits well or needs a lot of work.
What gen of the 3sgte is best as well?
 
D

Dracov

Member
"Best" is highly debatable really, since everyone has a different definition for it.

3rd gen block can have cracking issues between cylinder 2 and 3, 1st and 2nd have tardtastic HFH's on them but are beefier blocks. 3rd gen starts you off with 250-ish HP whereas the others are less. Most aftermarket is available for 2nd gen...

All in all, there really is no significant difference in their respective strength, unless you're trying to break world records with it.
 
D

deecee

New member
celica st165 = 1st gen
celica st185 = 2nd gen
celica st205 = 3rd gen
caldina st215 = 4th gen
caldina st246 = 5th gen

IMO, the Gen 3 is better than a Gen 2 due to better oil reticulation, larger injectors, more efficient turbo, water to air intercooler, MAP, and most importantly - the oil filter is under the car on the sump pan, not between the alternator and the exhaust manifold (could be worse though, gen 2 3sge has oil filter under the exahuast manifold).

Gen 4 has coil on pack, side feed manifold, but has exhaust manifold that can warp unless after 1999 and the manifold/turbo as one cast unit.

Depending on what you want to do and where you are located, the gen 3 is a better place to start with modifications rather than the gen 2 because improvements were made so if you are starting from a baseline, better to start at something that is better from the start (and the oil filter under the car.. that in itself is worth the upgrade).

Parts availability is an issue. i notice you are in minnesota.. that means that getting things for the st205 will not be as easy as markets where the st205 was sold (being in New Zealand, I can just call up the local toyota parts dist. and they have most common parts available off the shelf).
There is a small but available market for gen2 3sgte's espec. with MR2s getting modded over in the states a lot.

Of the cases of block cracking, there have been a handful of cases of this issue and IMO is blown out of proportion. I've heard of more evo and subbie engines blow up than I have 3sgte's. There will inevitably be failures in any form of manufactured goods and in various cases there is never a clear presentation of what the root cause is. Just my feelings on this issue.

If you are going to build it up, go with the Gen 2 as the aftermarket is there for you to buy from and the market supports this.

If you wanted something diff, don't mind waiting for "overnight parts from juh-pan", and aren't looking at huge upgrade and want the oil filter on the bottom of the car, then go gen 3. if you want coil on pack with a side feed manifold, go gen 4 - just change the manifold and turbo to gen 3 or aftermarket.

Oh - and that old 3sgte power primer is a good start but hasn't been updated in a long time. It needs a big update espec with numerous people doing a lot bigger numbers on the 3sgte now.
 
9

92blackGT4

New member
Thanks DeeCee that was mostly what i was looking for. I Have a different manifold for my turbo though. Will the one i have for my 2nd gen match to the 4th?
 
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deecee

New member
manifolds dont' match sorry.
gen1 and gen 2 match, in/ex. gen3 and gen 4 match, in/ex.

Not sure about gen 5. I don't have enough info on them yet, though I believe that the gaskets are the same on in/ex, so things can be changed between gens 3, 4 and 5.

gen 5 went back to centre feed from gen 4s side feed.
 
T

tubasteve

New member
it is said the 4th gen has a stronger block... dont know, it has 9:1 compession, and most parts are the same as the 3rd gen. if you wanted you could get the fourth gen and put 3rd gen cams in it and put a dizzy and have no dis system. high imp injecters cause a loss of a little weight. map is on the intake not on the firewall anymore. top feed 540cc injectors as well vs 2 and thrid gen side feed injectors.

if it was me and i had to do this all over again from day one...i might go with the 215 engine as the side intake and all that jazz is what i like for my front mount i.c. the turbo is what i hate the most!!! let me say that, this is why it is not in my car yet. waiting on the manifold for the 3rd gen.

sorry it is hald a$$ed but i dont have two pennies to give you, just what ive done and have
 
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tw2

New member
I haven't read most of the thread but I also say go for a 2nd gen when building, not much difference once you take away all the parts you would upgrade anyway and there is a heap of available parts. There are quite a few parts for 3rd gen's but they are much harder to find and tend to be HKS and other expensive parts.
 
A

AvivB

New member
DeeCee":1e6p9tr6 said:
celica st165 = 1st gen
celica st185 = 2nd gen
celica st205 = 3rd gen
caldina st215 = 4th gen
caldina st246 = 5th gen

IMO, the Gen 3 is better than a Gen 2 due to better oil reticulation, larger injectors, more efficient turbo, water to air intercooler, MAP, and most importantly - the oil filter is under the car on the sump pan, not between the alternator and the exhaust manifold (could be worse though, gen 2 3sge has oil filter under the exahuast manifold).

Gen 4 has coil on pack, side feed manifold, but has exhaust manifold that can warp unless after 1999 and the manifold/turbo as one cast unit.

Depending on what you want to do and where you are located, the gen 3 is a better place to start with modifications rather than the gen 2 because improvements were made so if you are starting from a baseline, better to start at something that is better from the start (and the oil filter under the car.. that in itself is worth the upgrade).

Parts availability is an issue. i notice you are in minnesota.. that means that getting things for the st205 will not be as easy as markets where the st205 was sold (being in New Zealand, I can just call up the local toyota parts dist. and they have most common parts available off the shelf).
There is a small but available market for gen2 3sgte's espec. with MR2s getting modded over in the states a lot.

Of the cases of block cracking, there have been a handful of cases of this issue and IMO is blown out of proportion. I've heard of more evo and subbie engines blow up than I have 3sgte's. There will inevitably be failures in any form of manufactured goods and in various cases there is never a clear presentation of what the root cause is. Just my feelings on this issue.

If you are going to build it up, go with the Gen 2 as the aftermarket is there for you to buy from and the market supports this.

If you wanted something diff, don't mind waiting for "overnight parts from juh-pan", and aren't looking at huge upgrade and want the oil filter on the bottom of the car, then go gen 3. if you want coil on pack with a side feed manifold, go gen 4 - just change the manifold and turbo to gen 3 or aftermarket.

Oh - and that old 3sgte power primer is a good start but hasn't been updated in a long time. It needs a big update espec with numerous people doing a lot bigger numbers on the 3sgte now.
Click to expand...

Is there any difference between the ST185RC engine to the ST205 engine?
Or it is just the first time the come out with the 3rd gen engine but they put it in ST185?

Thanks,
 
P

pit_celica

Member
DeeCee":me9t0i06 said:
alltracshoak":me9t0i06 said:
tubasteve":me9t0i06 said:
. waiting on the manifold for the 3rd gen.
Click to expand...
why not use a stock 3rd gen exhaust manifold?i have one :)
Click to expand...
Diff stud pattern
Click to expand...

Gen 3 ST205 and Gen 4 ST215 have the same exhaust manifold bolt pattern. A gen 3 exhaust manifold will bolt on a gen 4 head.

A Gen 4 ST215 isn't harder than any other 3SGTE swap. Wiring is a little different, but definatley not that hard. It is bolt on in your engine bay and on your tranny like any other 3SGTE swap.

Look at my other post on this subject for more info on ST215 engine.

Sam
 
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tubasteve

New member
"getting parts is hard"

very few parts are vastly differeent and cant get them in the states @ any dlr. but there are some dealers arouind that stock the parts for the 3rd/4th gens.

my manifold is off a third gen just waiting for the snail mail. intake and exst gaskets are the same between 3/4

it depends on if u can have a car down for a week after you have drivien it and happy with it imho. i have 2 honda accords for dd's rarely do i dri e to work UNLESS its eing workedon(modified) or i have ab ig cruz this weekend with s2ks and such. i have 1,2,4 gen motors in storage and waiting on my 3rd gen for my mr2. i will see a bout side by side what will fit
 
D

deecee

New member
AvivB":3shsiy7c said:
Is there any difference between the ST185RC engine to the ST205 engine?
Or it is just the first time the come out with the 3rd gen engine but they put it in ST185?

Thanks,
Click to expand...

The ST185RC engine is the gen 2 version.
The main difference is that ECU, Water to Air Cooler and the steel shaft turbo compared with Air to Air and ceramic shaft turbo on the normal st185.

Gen 3 engine did not come in any ST185 shell.
 
A

AvivB

New member
DeeCee":3elh9tei said:
AvivB":3elh9tei said:
Is there any difference between the ST185RC engine to the ST205 engine?
Or it is just the first time the come out with the 3rd gen engine but they put it in ST185?

Thanks,
Click to expand...

The ST185RC engine is the gen 2 version.
The main difference is that ECU, Water to Air Cooler and the steel shaft turbo compared with Air to Air and ceramic shaft turbo on the normal st185.

Gen 3 engine did not come in any ST185 shell.
Click to expand...

How can you distinguish between 2nd and 3rd gen without looking on the ECU or knowing the history of the engine (assuming the turbo and the IC can be not the original)?
Any marks on the block, location of parts or any other sign?

Thanks,
 
T

tw2

New member
Gen 2 will have a huge ugly air flow meter. Gen 3 has only 4 runners instead of 8 in the intake manifold and a larger throttle body. There are many many small differences.
 
T

tubasteve

New member
stated before:
165 gen1
185 gen2
205 gen3
215 gen4
center feed intake is 165-205. like above 165-185 are 8 runners, 205 has 4. the215 is side feed 8 runners. on intake cam side of head for 215 motor has a cam sensor hole.oil filterlocation on 205-215 are below.

turbo for 205 "ct20" has 7 bolt pattern on down pipe bolt up. andthe185 has 6. those are the twin entry turbies. 165....uh i dont know much i own one. the 215 is one peice manifold.

the 215&205 have pcv valves factory bov's. the 165 and 185 does not. the 165-205 only came with mani trans. the 215 mostly auto. 215 has map on the manifold the 165-205 dont. cranks are same from 165-215.....u cant see that but yeah.bottomend only, u cant tell what it is if they take theoil pump off the 215 cause of the crank sen.


please understand i wrote this on my cell phone. what i have posted might be wrong.
 
S

smog7

Moderator
AvivB":smv08nqc said:
DeeCee":smv08nqc said:
AvivB":smv08nqc said:
Is there any difference between the ST185RC engine to the ST205 engine?
Or it is just the first time the come out with the 3rd gen engine but they put it in ST185?

Thanks,
Click to expand...

The ST185RC engine is the gen 2 version.
The main difference is that ECU, Water to Air Cooler and the steel shaft turbo compared with Air to Air and ceramic shaft turbo on the normal st185.

Gen 3 engine did not come in any ST185 shell.
Click to expand...

How can you distinguish between 2nd and 3rd gen without looking on the ECU or knowing the history of the engine (assuming the turbo and the IC can be not the original)?
Any marks on the block, location of parts or any other sign?

Thanks,
Click to expand...

I don't know about you, but I have tons of different engine bay photos saved on my computer... little differences can be distinguished from gen to gen

one way to tell is the valve cover... each gen looks different
 
T

tubasteve

New member
true that on the valve cover.....but if u get a complete engine itmight be coverd with top mount ic, so u can b e fooled. one could say, go y top mount.....the 205 ic bols onto the 165.......
 
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