WRC CT20b

Q&A regarding engines, turbos, and intercoolers and power upgrades

Postby vip09 » Thu Sep 10, 2009 7:20 am

klue.. you guys are on crack lol.


The turbo off the ST205 WRC is the same thing from any other gen3 3S-GTE except that it has the steel wheel instead of ceramic. It's nothing to get excited about. A simple TD06 would put it to shame.
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Postby gt4tified » Thu Sep 10, 2009 5:30 pm

WarTowels wrote:Post the pics


Okay guys...I didn't know that this would generate so much debate but here goes:
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So the question is now, what turbo is this that I have just landed?

1. Regular ceramic CT20b - (highly unlikely)
2. ST205 wrc CT20b - maybe but did these come with anti-lag?
3. TTE WRC CT20b - not sure either.

So to get back in the discussion:
Simba wrote:The "ST205 WRC" had a plain 'ol CT20b on the un-drilled homologation manifold. It's nothing like the rally turbos. Those used cast inconel turbines, and other things of general lunacy, to survive anti-lag use.

The CT26R can make all kinds of power, however, chances are very good you don't have one if it came off of a production car.


The turbo in the pic definitely has the anti-lag system installed, so where does that stand now Simba? The seller said that these were some st205 wrc parts that he had picked up but never said that it came off a production car....I don't think he even saw the car it came off.

RedCelicaTRD wrote:Not all of them. Some ct-26s just say Toyota, all CT20b's only say Toyota.

As for a WRC edition ST205 turbo making huge torque numbers, not likely. The only difference was a steel turbine compared to the regular CT20b. However if it is a TTE WRC turbo that was used on an actual rally car then it could make some nice torque numbers. However, I highly doubt it is a TTE turbo. They are sold few and far between and for usually more then a hole GT series turbo kit would cost.


Why would you doubt that what I have is a wrc turbo RedCelicaTRD?...do you think that it is THAT unbelievable that I managed to get my hands on one? Its a used turbo, and maybe the previous seller scored big when he bought it and doesn't even know what he has (had).

vip09 wrote:klue.. you guys are on crack lol.


The turbo off the ST205 WRC is the same thing from any other gen3 3S-GTE except that it has the steel wheel instead of ceramic. It's nothing to get excited about. A simple TD06 would put it to shame.


I don't agree, nor do I think klue is on crack...he is an experienced tuner who has passed through more turbos than most of us in this thread.

The question is, why would Toyota put just a steel wheel alone on the limited edition run of the ST205 and keep the ceramic shaft, which is what I am inferring from your post above? It seems ludicrous that they would do that just for sake of saying that this model has a steel turbine. I want to more believe that because of the attached anti-lag system as seen in the pics that this turbo has the ICONEL wheel and shaft.


But all my theorizing is of course open for debate! :wink:
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Postby smog7 » Thu Sep 10, 2009 6:04 pm

74080 for twin entry the steel shaft CT20B from the ST205 WRC

74040 for twin entry Ceramic CT20B

taken from:
http://mr2oc.com/showthread.php?t=282510&page=1

also listed in that thread are the ct series turbos used in the actual rally cars
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Postby gt4tified » Thu Sep 10, 2009 6:44 pm

So why would a ceramic twin entry ct20b be bolted to an anti-lag manifold....the idea seems ludicrous?
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Postby Insanity-74 » Thu Sep 10, 2009 8:37 pm

If that was a TTE Inconel turbo it would have cost alot more than your car to buy...they go for MEGGA money, they are very very rare and sought after...you`d be looking at thousands of dollars for one.

The road going WRC cars bear very little ressembelance to the TTE Rally cars, almost nothing is the same, even the shell is different. The road going WRC cars use a ct26c2 turbo (what people incorrectly call a CT20b) just like every other st205 but with as mentioned steel guts as opposed to ceramic.

Klue is spot on in what he says.

Theres nothing to say that people cant swap turbos, not everyone is clued up when it comes to GT4s and they may simply have bought a replacement ST205 turbo not knowing that there is a difference between the WRC and Regular st205 turbos.

You wont get massive power from it...350BHP will be about your limit although every car is different you may get a bit more or a bit less.

The anti lag system on a WRC is there purely to fullfill the homologation rules, it does not function and was never intended to function on the road cars, hence no inconel turbo, exhaust manifold etc etc. Its a standard run of the mill WRC Turbo...nothing special I`m afraid.

TTE Inconel Turbo....I`m sure you`ll spot the differences

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Postby DeeCee » Thu Sep 10, 2009 9:12 pm

answer is #2 - steel shaft ct20b on WRC manifold.

Unless, the turbo has been replaced with a ceramic shaft unit sometime in its life. Car may have had blown turbo so they replaced it with a ceramic version. Does happen..
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Postby Simba » Thu Sep 10, 2009 9:15 pm

gt4tified wrote:The turbo in the pic definitely has the anti-lag system installed, so where does that stand now Simba?


It has the air injection pipes "installed" on the manifold for homologation purposes. If you remove the pipes, the holes are not drilled through the manifold to make that portion of the system functional. Moreover, the pipes are one very small part of the ALS system, and the only part of it which exists on a 205 WRC. There was never a functional ALS system installed on any production car by Toyota.

You've got a ceramic CT20b bolted to a 205 WRC manifold. It'll make ~300whp if you squeeze it, as I originally said. It has absolutely nothing to do with a rally car, and unfortunately you didn't get a "barn find" $5,000 turbo. You got a plain 'ol 20b on a manifold that is not fundamentally different from any other 205 manifold.

There was never a ceramic turbine shaft. Only the turbine wheel is ceramic.

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Postby DeeCee » Thu Sep 10, 2009 10:07 pm

apologies.. i'm lazy in my thinking. I always think steel shaft / ceramic shaft for steel wheel / ceramic wheel and touch type stuff down.
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Postby klue » Fri Sep 11, 2009 2:04 am

clarified this with Ralph,
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Postby gt4tified » Fri Sep 11, 2009 1:32 pm

Simba wrote:
gt4tified wrote:The turbo in the pic definitely has the anti-lag system installed, so where does that stand now Simba?


It has the air injection pipes "installed" on the manifold for homologation purposes. If you remove the pipes, the holes are not drilled through the manifold to make that portion of the system functional. Moreover, the pipes are one very small part of the ALS system, and the only part of it which exists on a 205 WRC. There was never a functional ALS system installed on any production car by Toyota.

You've got a ceramic CT20b bolted to a 205 WRC manifold. It'll make ~300whp if you squeeze it, as I originally said. It has absolutely nothing to do with a rally car, and unfortunately you didn't get a "barn find" $5,000 turbo. You got a plain 'ol 20b on a manifold that is not fundamentally different from any other 205 manifold.

There was never a ceramic turbine shaft. Only the turbine wheel is ceramic.


Thanks for the clarification on the first part. I contacted the seller and he said that the pics that he had sent were those of a ceramic CT20b which were sold to another board member. He has assured me that what I am going to receive is the st205 wrc steel turbine version.

I am not disappointed in any way, I am just very glad its not a ceramic one. I'll have pics when I get it in hand.

I'll be pushing the turbo to 20psi max, cuz my build is an inexpensive one to 300awhp/300 ft.lb.

The previous owner pushed the turbo to 21psi and dyno'd with a st203 (FWD) with a gen3 3sgte on a gen3 mr2 lsd gearbox, with a very simple mods including water/meth injection and dyno'd at 342hp/336ft.lb

Klue, thanks for the clarification buddy. Hope to see you soon.
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Postby built2run » Tue Sep 22, 2009 7:05 pm

simba, isn't the ALS system just inactive in the wrc st205? i'm pretty sure there is a pin in the wrc's ecu that when gronded activates the ALS
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Postby DeeCee » Tue Sep 22, 2009 8:24 pm

The ALS is missing some components to make it work in the ST205.
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Postby Simba » Tue Sep 22, 2009 9:03 pm

built2run wrote:simba, isn't the ALS system just inactive in the wrc st205? i'm pretty sure there is a pin in the wrc's ecu that when gronded activates the ALS


The only part of the system that exists is the bare manifold casting and the air injection pipes. The holes for the pipes are not drilled through on the production manifold. The pipes are the only part of the ALS system that exists on the production cars, and it's a tiny part of the whole system.

You'd also need the air pump, VSV assemblies and plumbing, ALS sub-harness, and the rally ECU, which is entirely different from the production street ECU.

None of the ECUs produced for street use have any ALS provision whatsoever.

Moreover, ALS is not a "ground it and it works" system. There are many levels of ALS which are used with different programs for different situations. E.g. the tarmac ALS program is the most aggressive, the winter/snow program the least, and so forth.

ALS has no place on a street car. You can fake it with timing tricks that most of the aftermarket EMS units can do, but true air injection anti-lag will destroy a steel turbine turbo inside of a thousand miles. That's why TTE went to very exotic materials to give the turbos any kind of life, and even then they only last a very short time.

You could roll your own ALS system using a 205 WRC manifold, and control it with a good EMS that has enough IO to run such a system (you need to monitor, and actuate many things), but you would in effect be starting from scratch so far as activation scenarios and logic go. You'd be where Toyota was in the early 80's, only without the million dollar R&D budget.

To make a functional air-injection system on a 205 WRC manifold, you'd need:

- CT26R (or other) inconel turbo, or a few dozen Garretts.

- Drilled manifold so the "pipes" can actually deliver air into the exhaust stream.

- VERY powerful air injection pump-- you could probably use something from an emissions system. Ferrari did this for a while on the 355 and 360.

- High temp exhaust/air VSVs. Again, Ferrari makes one. They're $400 each. You'd need four.

- An EMS with lots of IO, probably Motec or EFI Technologies.

- All sorts of VSVs, plumbing, and a stellar crapload of R&D time.

Expect to pay around $15k to build such a system, and on a street car, the only use of it would be to destroy turbochargers.

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Postby built2run » Wed Sep 23, 2009 6:31 pm

Thats good to know, thanks for saving me some cash for the wrc ecu. how would I find the rally ecu ? and who is selling a wrc manifold ? my car is getting to the point where its going to end up being track only. if I can keep it under 95 db I can run antilag at a few events. one of my instructors did some work for a group n team and is willing to share some experience on a similar setup. I need to find the one who told me about the st205 ecu and tear him a new one. sorry 4 thread jacking
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Postby gt4tified » Wed Sep 23, 2009 6:49 pm

Lol...not a problem. I was reading on with interest, and learning a thing or two from Simba.

Its funny though cuz I may have to sell back the turbo, but locally, cuz the shipping will be crazy for you all. Reason being I'm investigating a built engine locally which already has a Garrett .60 compressor/ .63A/R turbine with ext. wastegate already installed.
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