600 hp TMIC?

Q&A regarding engines, turbos, and intercoolers and power upgrades

600 hp TMIC?

Postby IStalkgt4s » Wed Dec 02, 2009 6:58 pm

I have a 90 st185 and I'm getting ready for the big build, I'm shooting for 500-600 hp, but I wanna stay top mount if possible, I have the rc WTA and was told they can support up to about 550hp...
(The parts I have already.)

Eagle h beam rods
hks valve springs
supertech +1mm valves
aem water/meth injection
fidanza lw flywheel arp bolts
Aussie DP
hks silent power exhuast

(Parts I don't have that I'm working on)
pistons
850cc Injectors
Fuel rail
Valve guides
Cam gears
272 or 280 Cams
Tuning belt
hks Fuel cut defender
hks Speed defender
Aem ecu
Radiator 
Fuel cell
hoses
low temp Thermostat
Fuel pressure regulator
255 Fuel pump 
Pulleys
external Waste gate
Exhaust manifold
Engine mounts
Clutch 
Upgraded turbo.
Intake manifold
Throttle body

I know it's a big list... And that's just for the engine, my question to everyone is with the parts I don't have, what's my best option for accomplising my goal, etc. turbo, cam set up, exhaust and intake manifolds,throttle body,fuel rail, you get the idea. And for the rest of the stuff such as engine mounts, where could I find some good after market ones? And for a good replacemnt radiator, any brands? Or specs I should go with? I'm kinda over my head with trying to build this engine, never built a Toyota engine, only Honda, and that's like a belly button, everyone has one so it's not very hard, but I want a beast that will feast on the weak. So any help is greatly appricated. :shoots:
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Re: 600 hp TMIC?

Postby Gary ST165 » Wed Dec 02, 2009 8:09 pm

IStalkgt4s wrote:but I wanna stay top mount if possible, I have the rc WTA and was told they can support up to about 550hp...


550hp, for sustained use? who told you that?

:twisted:

i really cannot comprehend that the cross sectional area / size of the RC intercooler core will sufficiently cool 550hp worth of air flow. no way.

From my experience, even in stock trim (below 300hp) my RC can see 70 degree celcius inlet temps.

Maybe if you were to fill the sytem with dry ice and use NO2 e85 etc you might have 550 hp worth of intercooling for 12 seconds :)




ps if you buy aftermarket engine management / AEM ECU , you will NOT need these:

hks Fuel cut defender
hks Speed defender
ST165 turbo 4WD
ST185 GT-FOUR RC Carlos Sainz Limited Edition 825•5000
ST185 turbo 4WD Carlos Sainz Limited Edition 2541•5000

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Postby DeeCee » Wed Dec 02, 2009 8:17 pm

Not sure why you think top mount is better for your application but I'd suggest looking at FMIC as it is a nice simple system. Also I'm pretty sure that RC or ST205 WTA doesn't support 550hp.

I'm going to be straight up honest. You want a beast yet you start with a freaking heavy car with a very small aftermarket parts bin. You chose the wrong platform IMO. A WRX or an EVO would have been a better place to start. Even Supra's have bigger aftermarket parts bins than us! Don't forget, its a 20 year old car with an engine that was limited to a couple of platforms.

You want to hit 500 - 600hp, and that is a lofty goal. So I hope you know that it isn't cheap to do that. Be prepared to pay $$ to get that power, just like with any other car.

Engine mounts: Only need front and rear changed over. Can add dampers if required: http://www.speed-source.net/

Fuel Rail: Wolfkatz or http://www.speed-source.net/

Radiator: ASI 56mm - ebay. May need low profile fans like Spal to increase difference between fan rear and turbo

Cam Gears: HKS, C-One, Generic. I have C-One cos the HKS look ghey haha

Cams: Go 264s or 272s. I'd suggest 264s as they have better drivability, HKS or Kelford. Read this thread and look at cj motorsports test results:
http://kelfordcams.com/applications.aspx#Toyota

TuningBelt: HKS or Gates

ECU: Take your pick - I always suggest Link as they are local to me. Could go Motec if you are ultra serious but overall whatever suits your flavour and has the functions/datalogging you need.

Turbo: Take your pick. It better be big. Nothing else is a bolt on in the Celica engine bay and will require an adaptor at least or go with a new ex manifold. Many people using custom ex mani's to suit the turbo they want to mate with their engine.

That will start you off. Until you blow the engine. Then you will want to look at st205/gen3 or st215/gen4 engines. Then you will also throw into the mix a hybrid engine 5sfe using 3sgte head commonly referred to as 5sgte.

Read here, read the UK forums, read the MR2 boards.

Either commit or try a diff platform but I reckon that 500 - 600hp with limit budget will just cause heartbreak. The celica's a whale and most owners have a love affair with them (like myself) so be prepared for a not so easy modification path.
GT Four Adovansu "I want to enjoy the powerful and nimble agility behavior."

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Elephant: http://www.alltrac.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=26687
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Postby IStalkgt4s » Wed Dec 02, 2009 8:45 pm

I love my trac... I'll never get rid of it... I had a fully built k20 boosting 8 psi in a gutted EF Si... That was a beast, but it's no celica, and I think that's why we are all here... I mean that's pretty much why we are all on this forum lol... How many horses do u think a top mount can hold up? And what did the rally cars use... Cause they were top mount and had to be pushin alot of hp... And I know I'm in for a headache... My only concern about fmic is the lag... I was figuring I wouldn't need the defenders just like I don't need a boost contoller with the aem... I found an hks fuel rail but I guess it's discontinued...I've installed a computer with a touch screen in my car, I'll be posting that project soon, so I can do all my realtime on that instead of a laptop... And if I can't get 500-600 then i can't lol. But I'm building it up regardless lol.I agree te hks cam gears look stupid... Why use 264 then 272?...... The other question is if I'm running the methynal/water kit, that helps to cool the air drasticly... So running the WTA wth the meth kit added wouldn't work?
Last edited by IStalkgt4s on Wed Dec 02, 2009 8:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby tissimo » Wed Dec 02, 2009 8:49 pm

I wouldn't be worried about the lag from a TMIC to a FMIC. The difference will be minuscule

If you're really worried about it look into a Larger WTA unit to keep piping stort.
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Postby DeeCee » Wed Dec 02, 2009 8:53 pm

http://www.gtfours.co.uk/
pictures > special cars > st185

yes wrc used W2A, but they didn't push 500 - 600hp. Power wasn't the number they pushed, torque was.

Lag really isn't going to be that much of an issue when you increase the torque and they you have to think about turbo spool as well. If you want something that provides power down low in rev range, have a look at holset turbos ;)

Read the link i provided above regarding 264 vs 272
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Elephant: http://www.alltrac.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=26687
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Postby Landon » Wed Dec 02, 2009 8:54 pm

in my opinion- you should do a little more research into what gives these cars pretty high power. check out pats car and there is another guy on here pushing 700hp. i'd start there cause you're tmic isn't gonna get you far.
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Postby Simba » Wed Dec 02, 2009 8:54 pm

500+ hp requires a pretty huge turbo, so you're up a creek for lag anyway. FMIC is the cheap and easy solution, alternatively, you'll have to roll your own WTA core. No toyota core will flow what you need it to at those power levels.

Lots of fast, loud things.
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Postby IStalkgt4s » Wed Dec 02, 2009 9:01 pm

I know it probably wouldn't... But I just hoped it would.... U don't ever see any hard ass top mounts.
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Postby BoostedBlueToyotas » Wed Dec 02, 2009 9:22 pm

I have Pat C. old WTA setup (with a TTE core) and I have had it for about
4-5 yrs. I am pretty sure he switched well before 550 hp to a front mount.
In other words, see what the big boys are running and I am pretty sure its
front mount systems :)
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Postby lumbercis » Wed Dec 02, 2009 9:55 pm

Not so fast. An OEM top mount might not be up to it, but I've seen several mr2 guys lately doing custom WtA systems rather than trunk mount setups for bigger power. Check on mr2oc and see what they are up to. I think I remember one guy that did a pretty big capacity system using junkyard parts from other boosted applications.

You might be able to up the capacity of the OEM system with an upgraded heat exchanger, but I don't know to what extent.
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Postby BoostedBlueToyotas » Wed Dec 02, 2009 11:53 pm

If they are making power its not with a TOP MOUNTED unit. They run larger
units and place the intercooler unit where the stock ATA was.
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1993 MR2 turbo - blue/black leather 59K TOTALLED/PARTING OUT
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Postby aus jd 2703 » Thu Dec 03, 2009 2:10 am

some thing i wanna fin more info about that ive seen on a few 'full house' cars is a heat exchanger that uses the air conditioning system. it would provide more cooling in a small space but i wonder about the power lost from the compressor compared to the power gained by cool intake charge and then the ability of more boost etc. still interesting.i saw it on some volvo. weird
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Postby celicaGTS_T » Thu Dec 03, 2009 9:12 am

rumor has it that ARC made a top-mount that would fit the 'trac's.... good luck finding one tho l :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:





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:lol: :lol:







:lol:



.... seriously, they did.
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Postby Insanity-74 » Thu Dec 03, 2009 6:04 pm

lumbercis wrote:Not so fast. An OEM top mount might not be up to it, but I've seen several mr2 guys lately doing custom WtA systems rather than trunk mount setups for bigger power.


I think thats because they dont have any choice really, they cant use a FMIC without 6 meters+ of pipework :) I wouldnt go to the hastle of making a custom WTA set up (oh hang on...yes I would :oops:) Having made a custom water to air set up its really not worth the expense, a FMIC is much easier and more effective.
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