Planning out a build, what to buy/expect

concealer404

New member
Flying Bajan":23g0jmom said:
HKS valve springs, cam gears, 264 cams, autronic, aquamist, 540cc injectors, bored rail, Evo III coil packs and big FMIC here, so not stock, and Kris knows my spec.

Drivetrain loss is in the region of 25 % on these cars (I've been told).


Heh, that's another debate.... but what magically makes your drivetrain suck twice as much power at 800chp vs. what it sucks at 400chp?


Not sure what to say on your car man. Don't take this the wrong way, but it just doesn't make sense to me that you can't make ~40whp more than what a stock turbo stock motor car can do.

I might be missing something, or maybe i've just gotten too aggressive in my tuning/setups over the years. I'll report back in a few months when i get my DD on the dyno. I'm running a CT26 (Supra, but still a CT) on it, it has a vasty inferior motor to the 3sgte, but i'm looking for 300whp, and i'll be HIGHLY surprised if i don't hit it.
 

Flying Bajan

New member
Is it an AWD car ? If not, your drivetrain losses will be more like 12 - 15% so you will reach the 300whp mark with less crank hp.

It's not magic, it's a percentage of overall power. The harder you try to turn a gear (more power), the harder it will resist, keeping the transmission losses pretty much as a constant percentage.
 

Flying Bajan

New member
Anyway, back on topic..... That company that you posted a line to... their T04 wheeled CT26 looks very interesting for those wanting to stay stockish.
 

underscore

Well-known member
concealer404":2j2s5bbs said:
When you say "stock turbo," do you want to keep the turbo 100% stock? Or just stock fitment? Big difference.

You could hit 300awhp with a stock FRAMED turbo, but certainly not with the stock wheels.

That's my hint of the day. ;)

Well I read this

"The gen 2 CT26 RC/CS turbo came from the factory with an uprated compressor wheel (which is larger) and it has an inconel wheel instead of the frag happy ceramic JDM standard wheels. I measured the compressor wheel as best I could, and its 46mm which is substantially larger than the stock 38mm. So max power output should be somewhere around 300hp to the wheels. We figured it would be smack between the CT20b and the JDM ct26. Think of it like a supra ct26 but with a twin entry exhaust housing. Its got the same specifications"

So from what I gather (I'm new to boost) is that the RC has a different exhaust-side wheel, but the same intake side wheel as a regular GTFour? In which case I wouldn't mind *too* much changing the intake wheel (if that would even help), but I'd prefer to keep the turbo as stock as possible.

Flying Bajan":2j2s5bbs said:
Fuel pump upgrade is always a good idea as might a set of slightly larger injectors and a bored out fuel rail &.

Cams and gears will not help a whole lot on a stock CT26. But do on the top end (at the expense of some low end) with a CT27. My car had in HKS 264's when I got it with a CT27 and it really came alive with the GT2871 I later installed... With the CT26 or 27, some stock gen III cams might be a useful upgrade that matches the power curve well with that level of mods. Bolting on a CT20 from an ST205 would be a good upgrade too methinks.

Good point on the cams, I wasn't even thinking of stock cams from another motor/gen :crazy: . I'll start looking into the Gen III cams vs Gen II, any others I should look at? I'd rather have low end than top end, 40 km/h over the limit gets your car impounded for a week around here, but we have tonnes of twisty back roads :wink:

As far as the fuel rail, I assume boring it out is better for me vs an oversize rail as the sizes in production are already too big of a jump from stock for what I'm doing (same for the cams?)? What would be considered slightly larger injectors? Stock is 440 if I'm not mistaken, so something like a 500? (if that even exists). I'm guessing yet again something that was stock in another car would be best?

Hotrodhendrix":2j2s5bbs said:
ST205 had a slightly larger W/A core if need be. You could always build a "ct27" out of your stocker like ATS does. Still a "stock" like turbo but should get you much closer to where you want to be. Not to mention it wont fall on its face at higher rpm like the stocker does.

~James

How do I tell if I need a bigger core? Intercooler water and intake air temps getting too high? What exactly is a CT27? Same as above, I want to keep the RC-specific parts of my turbo but Im semi-open to changing the parts that are the same as the regular GTFour.
 

Flying Bajan

New member
There are several bigger bore fuel rails available for purchase out there, should not affect your engine negatively in any way, actually will be better as a bigger rail will ensure that all the injectors get adequate fuel when the demand for it arrives in the form of boost :)

550cc injectors are readily available.

CT27 is a "hot rodded" CT26. Do not know specs exactly, check with ATS or similar folks, but I like the looks of the modded CT26 on the site posted by "concealer" I think it was.
 

sentraman

New member
Our setup consist of:

we made 367hp & 417tq with timing pulled out of the top end for safety @ 20psi.

@15psi still with timing pulled we made 309hp & 299tq

2nd gen 3S
Shimless buckets
Valve springs & retainers
HKS272 cams
Garret GT3076R w/ anti surge housing
3in turbo back
AEM EMS
Speed-source rail
ID 1000cc injectors
Aero 340 pump
side feed intake mani
Big FMIC
Tial MVR 44mm
 

concealer404

New member
Flying Bajan":394uq68i said:
Is it an AWD car ? If not, your drivetrain losses will be more like 12 - 15% so you will reach the 300whp mark with less crank hp.

It's not magic, it's a percentage of overall power. The harder you try to turn a gear (more power), the harder it will resist, keeping the transmission losses pretty much as a constant percentage.

It's not an AWD car, but it's powered by a 7.8:1 compression ratio SOHC 12v 2.2 litre motor. It's crap. It revs to 6000rpms. There's more than enough advantage in a 3sgte over an F2T that it should have no problems making that power if the F2T can.

I'm still not buying percentage. There's nothing that makes the gears harder to turn just because you happen to be making more power. There's a certain number of power necessary to turn gears, pullies, accessories. As long as you keep all those things constant, the number doesn't change.


Besides the point anyways... if you call BNR Supercars, they're pretty knowledgeable, they should be able to tell you about how much power to expect out of their hybrids. :)
 

sentraman

New member
Well from my experience with the same setup with our Alltrac and my friends mr2. We are pretty running the same turbo setup and parts setup. He makes 291whp and 290tq @9psi as compared to our setup @15psi 309awhp & 299tq
 

concealer404

New member
sentraman":1mgqxejh said:
Well from my experience with the same setup with our Alltrac and my friends mr2. We are pretty running the same turbo setup and parts setup. He makes 291whp and 290tq @9psi as compared to our setup @15psi 309awhp & 299tq


I would expect that. That's FWD drivetrain loss vs. AWD drivetrain loss. :)
 

Flying Bajan

New member
Bear in mind that simply testing on a different day and/or a different dyno and/or even somethng as simple as diffferent tyre pressures will result in quite different WHEEL horsepower readings even with the same car being tested.

It is not as simple as "it takes a certain amount of power to turn a gear" and that figure stays constant always. I can guarantee you that with the physics involved, the harder you try to turn the gear, the more power (as a total figure of bhp, not a percentage) it will take to turn it.

Anyway, enough debate... back to the topic.
 
Just go over to mr2oc.com and see what they are getting.
ATS makes a CT27 (which I have on my trac) which has a 46 wheel in the compressor side and they enlarged the turbo on the turbine side. I think this makes the most power of any CT26 based turbo and they dont get 300 to the flywheel with it (not sure if they can hit it with race gas on their rom tune).
This topic has been beaten to death on that forum ......
 

concealer404

New member
I'm not a ran of the CT27, and it's not the biggest CT-based turbo you can get.

For the record, i'm not saying that i would really recommend doing a CT-based turbo if you're looking for power. Do it right, do it once. :)
 
You can stuff as big as wheel as you want in the compressor side and it doesnt help one bit. The CT27 claim is hogging out the turbine housing to flow more. A larger compressor wheel just turns the turbo into a bigger hair dryer faster, the max efficiency is reached with the 46 wheel. Again its been beaten to death over on mr2 forums and I would like to see a CT26 with any compressor wheel of your choice that outguns a CT27 .... They have plenty of dyno run sheets posted over there.
 

evo_lucian

New member
I am very new to the 3sgte world, but i am coming from the 4ag(t)e world . From day one i have just been puzzled as to why 3sgte owners spend so much $ on such mediocre performance . I don't know about you guys but I have a problem with dropping $1100 on a ct27 that will probably make 60 hp more than a ct26. For that $ i can build an adapter plate for the stock manifold and buy a mitsubishi td06 20g or similar sized holset turbo, rebuild it and probably still have some cash left over to pick up a megasquirt.

manifold adapter $60
rebuilt td06 20g $4-500
oil lines $50
downpipe $100
megasquirt 1 v3 $200
wrx injectors (can be decapped to flow 750cc) $100

all this for under the price of a "ct27 " alone :twisted: throw in a fmic to the above list and 350whp is easily attainable. Again i know most 3sgte owners are attracted to the ct27 because it "bolts on" but that's all it has going for it IMO.
 

underscore

Well-known member
BoostedBlueToyotas":23uufdnz said:
Just go over to mr2oc.com and see what they are getting.

MR2's never had the RC so I'm not sure why any MR2 guy would have aimed for my goals around my restraints...
 

xander279

New member
without touching the fuel delivery... getting to even 300bhp will be a tall order to fill.

Things you can do on the stock ECU/Fuel Delivery
Replace the stock intake system and build custom air induction.
3 Inch Downpipe
Remove Catalytic Converter
3 Inch Cat-Back Exhaust
Convert Top-Mount Intercooler to Front Mount Intercooler
Aftermarket Turbo Manifold (if you can find a good made one)
Beams 3SGE Intake Manifold (hard to find because no cars in the united states came with this particular 3S Variant)
turn the boost up to 16psi (only works on JDM ECU)
94 Octane Gas

you might be able to reach 300 at the crank with this setup
 

underscore

Well-known member
I'm fine with changing the fuel delivery, the pump is old anyways and I'm pretty sure the injectors have never been cleaned but my AFR's are a solid 10 at WOT. I have an open intake, traight pipe to muffler exhaust goes in tomorrow.

I've read that the WTA TMIC can be good up to 600 HP with an upgraded core, and the stock exhaust manifold is good to 500HP so I don't see the gains in changing though. As previously stated I get 94 octane here and I'm assuming that intake manifold would only be useful if I ditch the WTA
 

zero06

New member
I am currently in the middle of basically the same project. End result I am trying to achive a car that appears to be a "stock" RC for the most part and puts down 300whp with a decent power curve that doesnt let up. although I have been snagged up because mine is a USDM Alltrac converting to an RC (so I have to deal with body panels, paint, powerfolds ect).

I have decided to go
-3" zaust
-Built bottom end
-kelford 258 cams
-ATS cam gears
-550 injectors
-bored fuel rail
-FPR
-haltech ecu.
but my turbo I am going aftermarket as you can fit some setups under the stock heat-shield, and most people wont notice/know what an gt-four looks like around here.
My choices are a toss up between a gt2871r and a Borg warner EFR 6258 placed in stock location.
The gt2871r Is a safe bet but The EFR may not fit due to space with the turbine length putting the Down Pipe into the alternator.

I am looking for 300whp with about 15 psi I think this is possible, Altough the flow on the RC WTA IC may be a restriction based on info on another topic, meaning I may have to switch to an st205 WTA IC. I'm hoping to have my car running december before snow fall Ill let you know how it does on the dyno!
 

zero06

New member
any chance you'll be doing the turbo last and want to post up your results before the turbo swap? haha.
probably not, the tuner and dyno I am going to are about an hour and a half drive away, otherwise I would for you.
I really think what you are looking for is a gt2871r
 
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