How much can the 3SGTE Block handle?

Q&A regarding engines, turbos, and intercoolers and power upgrades

How much can the 3SGTE Block handle?

Postby celigts » Sat Jun 02, 2012 4:28 am

I can Definitly see that happening since taking my head off. Didn't know how close 2 and 3 are compared the 1 and 4.
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Re: How much can the 3SGTE Block handle?

Postby loft » Sat Jun 02, 2012 8:36 am

So basicly I have fucked my self in the ass with 1mm bor/drill...
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Re: How much can the 3SGTE Block handle?

Postby RoAdbOy » Sat Jun 02, 2012 9:40 am

loft wrote:So basicly I have fucked my self in the ass with 1mm bor/drill...

don't worry about the bore buddy...
it depends all how you upgrade your car...
i know so much 3sgte with the same bore as yours, tune it right, go save with a metal headgasket, alu rad, radiator fans, low temp. thermostat, fmic, high quality oil, high octane fuel or meth. etc to absorb the stress...
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Re: How much can the 3SGTE Block handle?

Postby 4rsnduction » Sat Jun 02, 2012 10:38 am

RoAdbOy wrote: high quality oil


Waste of money and potentially damaging if you have forged pistons.
Forged pistons have a much larger expansion ratio over stock as they go from dead cold to operating temp.
During this expansion time, to protect the piston and the cylinder walls a thicker oil is required, one without synthetic friction modifiers.
Castrol 15w40 is perfect or even 20w50 if you live in a hotter climate.
The frequency of the oil changes are key to the long-term life of the piston and cylinder.
People experience the phenomenon of "piston slap" which is exactly what i have just covered :D
FYI : I am using 87mm pistons, no worries at all
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Re: How much can the 3SGTE Block handle?

Postby loft » Sat Jun 02, 2012 10:59 am

Thanks guys! You made my day.. Really thought I had to get a new block here..
Jeah, we are going to use about 1year..Road and a circut training next year. So we want to do it properly. Have a couple of firms thats really good on tuning around here, so one of them are going to program it for us, "japanauto" ex. We are using 1 year because we want to do it right the first time..
Any good ideas about witch turbo I should buy? (maybe there is another thread about it here?)
The biggest question I have is is witch injectors and fuelpump I should buy. Do they fit in the org. fuel rail, should i drill it up (however you do that), buy a new fuelrail? etc? good ideas people?:)

REALLY appreciate all the answers :) Have a nice weekend!
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Re: How much can the 3SGTE Block handle?

Postby RoAdbOy » Sat Jun 02, 2012 11:41 am

4rsnduction wrote:
RoAdbOy wrote: high quality oil


Waste of money and potentially damaging if you have forged pistons.
Forged pistons have a much larger expansion ratio over stock as they go from dead cold to operating temp.
During this expansion time, to protect the piston and the cylinder walls a thicker oil is required, one without synthetic friction modifiers.
Castrol 15w40 is perfect or even 20w50 if you live in a hotter climate.
The frequency of the oil changes are key to the long-term life of the piston and cylinder.
People experience the phenomenon of "piston slap" which is exactly what i have just covered :D
FYI : I am using 87mm pistons, no worries at all


i haven't said 'fully synthetic' :wink: i said 'high quality oil'
me self use 15w40 too...
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Re: How much can the 3SGTE Block handle?

Postby 4rsnduction » Sat Jun 02, 2012 1:25 pm

loft wrote:Any good ideas about witch turbo I should buy?

Try and get your hands on a Borg Warner 7064 if you can afford it......you wont regret it.

loft wrote:The biggest question I have is is witch injectors and fuelpump I should buy. Do they fit in the org. fuel rail, should i drill it up (however you do that), buy a new fuelrail? etc? good ideas people?:)

Big power needs big fuel delivery.....dont waste money and time fitting up anything less than 1000cc top feed injectors
The stock fuel rail is a side feed unit and can barely support 350whp when its bored out...and once its bored you have weakened the walls which is a potential risk.
Try and get your hands on a speedsource fuel rail (there top feed) ....the reason i recommend there rail is because it is beautifully machined, no rough edges anywhere and plenty of "meat" as far as fuel rail wall thickness goes, u also get a -10an hose size and the O-ring seats are perfect, very beautifully machined.
Fuel pump should be a 255L or higher...some people use a duel pump setup.

At the end of the day if u skimp on anything in a high HP build you will have problems.
You gotta spend big.....real big......if u want it to work properly.
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Re: How much can the 3SGTE Block handle?

Postby RoAdbOy » Sat Jun 02, 2012 1:47 pm

+1
and go with a single bosch 044 fuelpump
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Re: How much can the 3SGTE Block handle?

Postby l0ch0w » Sat Jun 02, 2012 2:45 pm

4rsnduction wrote:Waste of money and potentially damaging if you have forged pistons.
Forged pistons have a much larger expansion ratio over stock as they go from dead cold to operating temp.
During this expansion time, to protect the piston and the cylinder walls a thicker oil is required, one without synthetic friction modifiers.
Castrol 15w40 is perfect or even 20w50 if you live in a hotter climate.
The frequency of the oil changes are key to the long-term life of the piston and cylinder.
People experience the phenomenon of "piston slap" which is exactly what i have just covered :D
FYI : I am using 87mm pistons, no worries at all


You have to look at the recommended piston to wall clearance to determine that... Many modern high performance piston manufacturers use special forging techniques to lower expansion rates. I know that my wiseco pistons only reccomend having a piston to wall clearance of .035 in which is actually within the stock clearance limits...

Even then most performance engine builders could care less as to the piston to wall clearance as a deciding factor for their oil choice, as this is not a particularly cared about measurement... the big measurement that people care about for choosing their oil grade is the oil clearance on bearing surfaces...

I think its funny how so many people are truly uneducated about how oil works... Thicker oil DOES NOT PROTECT ANY BETTER... in fact because it flows so much slower, chances are that you induce far more damage to the cylinders waiting for oil to flow to the piston walls and bearing surfaces. Oil at operating temperature is generally considered to be at the best viscosity for protecting parts, A 50W oil at 212F is thinner than a 0W oil is at even 100F... This is then compounded by the fact that oil is rarely at 100F when its started, and below 100F conventional oils are MUCH MUCH MUCH thicker than synthetics. Below 32F a conventional 20W50 oil is at about the consistency of honey and below 0F its about the consistency of vaselline. A comparable synthetic might just be thin enough at these temps to actually be pumped... Either way, both are too thick for protecting your engine during cold start situations.

The ONLY reasons for switching to an oil with a higher cold viscosity would be for cost or availability reasons or for very specific racing applications where oil temps are very high and bearing clearances are very loose. Many other factors come into play, and while I could write another 3 pages worth of information on the chemical composition of different types of synthetic oil, friction modifiers, and viscosity improvers, Im just going to say this... Unless your main and rod bearing clearances are larger than stock, run Castrol 0W30 for normal daily use and occasional romping, and a quality racing oil with high zinc content for race day. For synthetics (group4 and 5 only) the winter grade should be as low as possible, and the upper should be tailored to your motor. This means that you take the motor up to operating temperature and observe the oil pressures. The general rule is 10 psi per 1000 rpm until you hit about 60-70psi. If it drops below that, then its time to increase the viscosity.

I would NEVER run a racing oil in a daily or street performance car... In fact, many race cars implement a heater system in their oil pans to pre-heat the oil before cranking to help lower the viscosity for cold starts. For race day, I plan on a good 15W40 and a block heater to raise the startup temps to over 150 before cranking... Racing oils are also not intended for use beyond a day or two of hard racing. Racing oils are designed to help increase the viscosity at very high (250 F+) oil temperatures. A 50 weight oil behaves more like a 30 or 40 weight oil at higher temperatures and that is why they are used. The lower number in all situations needs to be as low as possible, but in the case of conventional oils, its a really bad idea to have a large spread between the low and the high number due to the increased amount of visosity improvers that must be added to the oil. But using a good oil cooler, knowing your clearances, and keeping your eye on the pressure gauge will serve you alot better...
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Re: How much can the 3SGTE Block handle?

Postby l0ch0w » Sat Jun 02, 2012 2:59 pm

RoAdbOy wrote:+1
and go with a single bosch 044 fuelpump


Aeromotive Stealth 340LPH or Walbro 400 LPH... The 044 can really be put inside the tank... And both of these pumps will flow more fuel than the 044...
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Re: How much can the 3SGTE Block handle?

Postby tubasteve » Sat Jun 02, 2012 8:31 pm

I would not EVER recommend 0w on a 3sgte PERIOD.
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How much can the 3SGTE Block handle?

Postby celigts » Sat Jun 02, 2012 9:12 pm

Well I run 10w30 for summer and 5w30 for winter. It gets as cold as -30c and around 20-35c in summer. Stock so far.
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3SGTE project motor very slow
Intake/Heat shield project slowly moving
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Re: How much can the 3SGTE Block handle?

Postby l0ch0w » Sat Jun 02, 2012 9:46 pm

tubasteve wrote:I would not EVER recommend 0w on a 3sgte PERIOD.


^do you have any provable logic behind your statement?

Do you even know how oil multiviscosity grades work!?!

Id say perhaps you could have a small arguement if you were talking about conventional oils or grp 3 synthetics as both require viscosity improvers to give them their multiviscosity properties, but seeing as grp 4 and 5 synthetics dont require them I cant see where you can create an arguement that using an oil that has a low viscosity at low temperatures is a bad thing? A 0W 40 and a 15W 40 oil perform exactly the same at full operating temps...

The way the scale is read is that the low number with the W (or winter grade) represents the comparitive viscosity with an SAE standard oil at 100*F. The high number represents correspondingly the viscosity of the oil comparitive with an SAE standard oil at 212*F. For example:

Here is a graph explaining how MVO (multiviscosity oil) performs... as you can see the point is to help keep the viscosity of the oil as even as possible throughout its temperature range. Now this graph is by no means perfectly accurate, and in fact SAE 0 grade oil at 100F is still thicker than SAE 50 is at 212F..

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By alochow at 2012-06-02

All that said, a 0W motor oil is more than safe to run in your engine. The single biggest contributing factor to engine wear is the cold start. The faster you can get oil flowing to vital parts, the longer your engine will run for. TONS of people have been running castrol 0w30 in their 3sgtes for many years without consequence...
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Re: How much can the 3SGTE Block handle?

Postby MWP » Sun Jun 03, 2012 1:33 am

4rsnduction wrote:Waste of money and potentially damaging if you have forged pistons.
Forged pistons have a much larger expansion ratio over stock as they go from dead cold to operating temp.
During this expansion time, to protect the piston and the cylinder walls a thicker oil is required, one without synthetic friction modifiers.
Castrol 15w40 is perfect or even 20w50 if you live in a hotter climate.
The frequency of the oil changes are key to the long-term life of the piston and cylinder.
People experience the phenomenon of "piston slap" which is exactly what i have just covered :D
FYI : I am using 87mm pistons, no worries at all


What a load of crap... :shoots:

Longevity of bearings is far more important than a tiny bit of bore/ring/piston wear during start up.
Forged piston slap during warm up is nothing to worry about IF you let the engine warm up before driving it.

So in other words, run a good synthetic oil and make sure you give your engine 5mins of idle before driving it.
If you cant give your engine time to warm up, you shouldnt be using forged pistons.

Newer forged pistons need less clearance anyway, so if youve got lots of piston slap, your engine builder has probably ignored the pistons recommended clearance and just done what they think is right.
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Re: How much can the 3SGTE Block handle?

Postby tubasteve » Sun Jun 03, 2012 2:02 am

To keep from looking like an ass myself, i deleted this.
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