turbo bearings

Q&A regarding engines, turbos, and intercoolers and power upgrades

turbo bearings

Postby donnyavery » Wed Aug 22, 2012 11:36 am

ive been looking for a turbo for my new build but i want something big (a lot bigger) i know bigger is not always better thinking something like a gt35 or something but cents im going big i want ball bearing well today i came across a decently price gt35 with a 70ar compressor and a 63ar hot which is a little smaller then what im looking for but when i was reading the specs under bearing type it read "Ball Bearing Compressor / Journal Bearing Turbine " ive seen just Journal Bearing or just Ball Bearing why would this run a different bearing from one side to another is it just a way for the the manufacturer to cheap out and still say its a ball bearing turbo? will spool time still be better then a plain Journal Bearing turbo? and how would this affect live of the part? any one have any info
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it's called nitrous moron
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Re: turbo bearings

Postby donnyavery » Fri Aug 24, 2012 12:52 am

anyone?
it's called nitrous moron
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Re: turbo bearings

Postby tw2 » Fri Aug 24, 2012 10:27 pm

Some companies run a ball bearing on the compressor end and a journal bearing on the exhaust side. I would guess you get intermediate results between the two. It wont affect the lifespan. If this is a cheap chinese turbo then I wouldn't believe anything they say.

How much power are you aiming for? Track car only? I presume you have all the supporting mods? Anything larger than a gt30 is not going to be fun or useable on the street. A gt35 will spool around 5500rpm. On a built engine you will get about 3000rpm of useable power band, on a stock engine you will get 1,500rpm of useable powerband. I definitely would not get larger than .63A/R unless this is a dyno car only.

Have you tried compturbo? They have really good prices, billet compressor wheels, triple ball bearing etc.
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Re: turbo bearings

Postby donnyavery » Fri Aug 24, 2012 11:45 pm

im in middle of a full build now (gathering parts and waiting on the machine shop) the car is going to be mainly for friday night street fights and the occasional sunny day as for spool time thats why im looking into ball bearing and i also run a 100 wet shot of nitrous at the track which will spool just about any turbo instantly but as i said im kind of at a stand still right now so im researching turbos since the oil pump failed killing the last motor and turbo
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Re: turbo bearings

Postby donnyavery » Fri Aug 24, 2012 11:46 pm

oh and thanks for the info
it's called nitrous moron
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Re: turbo bearings

Postby 4rsnduction » Sat Aug 25, 2012 12:58 am

borg warner EFR series with ceramic ball bearings and gamma titanium wheel
Fast spool ++
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Re: turbo bearings

Postby tw2 » Sat Aug 25, 2012 1:54 am

donnyavery wrote:im in middle of a full build now (gathering parts and waiting on the machine shop) the car is going to be mainly for friday night street fights and the occasional sunny day as for spool time thats why im looking into ball bearing and i also run a 100 wet shot of nitrous at the track which will spool just about any turbo instantly but as i said im kind of at a stand still right now so im researching turbos since the oil pump failed killing the last motor and turbo

Sounds good. I honestly think you would have way more fun with a gt3076 sized turbo.
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Re: turbo bearings

Postby donnyavery » Sat Aug 25, 2012 1:07 pm

tw2 wrote:
donnyavery wrote:im in middle of a full build now (gathering parts and waiting on the machine shop) the car is going to be mainly for friday night street fights and the occasional sunny day as for spool time thats why im looking into ball bearing and i also run a 100 wet shot of nitrous at the track which will spool just about any turbo instantly but as i said im kind of at a stand still right now so im researching turbos since the oil pump failed killing the last motor and turbo

Sounds good. I honestly think you would have way more fun with a gt3076 sized turbo.


ill look into it like i said im not sure yet what turbo i need i just know im tired of have my ass handed to me in this car my first gen mr2 was a animal(317 hp) very competitive in street fights but this car i bought because i always wanted one but i did not realize how hard it was to get it to go, between the crappy 60ft and just the shear weight
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Re: turbo bearings

Postby tw2 » Sat Aug 25, 2012 9:35 pm

This is just my opinion, others may disagree. A fast street car is where you have heaps of torque which is easily accessible. A nice mid range sized turbo is usually the best way to make this happen. Anything ct26, gt28 sized simply does not allow enough power to be really really fast. Often anything gt35 and bigger is simply too hard to use, driving along everywhere in 1st gear just so you have some boost if you need it is not fun, sure you might have 500awhp but I suspect the chances to use it are limited.

gt3071, gt3076 and gt3080 (aka gt3040- I don't recommend for this engine) seem to be the best trade off for power and ease of use. There are heaps of variants made by precision, borg warner and compturbo so the options are endless. Most of these are also available with double or triple ceramic ball bearings and billet aluminium or titanium compressor wheels. These combos make for very fast spool (once you reach the boost threshold). Most have full boost around 3500 to 4000 which means you can actually have boost in 2nd gear when driving legally around town and most will put you well over 300awhp with all the right supporting stuff. This is what I have done but I can't comment on how it worked out since my car still lacks a proper tune and I haven't driven it for a year.
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Re: turbo bearings

Postby donnyavery » Sat Sep 01, 2012 7:01 pm

any one have any feed back on using the TD06-20g? can it get you into the big hp numbers
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Re: turbo bearings

Postby l0ch0w » Sat Sep 01, 2012 9:32 pm

How about you give us a horsepower number?

A 70+ trim turbo will require MASSIVE supporting modifications...

Pat runs a 72 trim turbo in his 900+ HP alltrac, and he has likely dropped $50K+ into his build to support those power levels.

What size fuel injectors are you running and what type of standalone system are you running, because that will help us to gauge what type of power levels you will be capable of, and then you can size the turbo based on your fueling and VE capabilities on the motor. Remember, the only true power adder for your motor will be your fueling system. Nitrous DOES NOT ADD POWER, it only allows for you to increase the available oxygen in the cylinder, which conversely requires your fueling system to also be able to kick it into overdrive otherwise you seriously risk detonation. Turbocharging performs essentially the same thing that nitrous does, except nitrous delivers more available oxygen via chemial means rather than mechanical ones. As boost/nitrous increases, you must also increase the amount of fuel delivered to prevent combustion and consumption of your aluminum cylinder head...

If you are good you can get 400whp out of a mistu 20g TD06, if you really really know what you are doing, then you might be able to push 500 out of the 20g, but you get really close to the surge line if your VE properties on the motor arent designed well enough.

If you dont know what I am talking about with any of this, then Just get a gen 3 or gen 4 swap and be happy with what you have.
Andrew

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Re: turbo bearings

Postby 4rsnduction » Sat Sep 01, 2012 10:41 pm

l0ch0w wrote:If you dont know what I am talking about with any of this, then Just get a gen 3 or gen 4 swap and be happy with what you have.


Too right, i see soo many ppl with there head in the clouds just throwing words around like GT35 and not knowing the substantial meaty truth.
Last edited by 4rsnduction on Sun Sep 02, 2012 12:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: turbo bearings

Postby donnyavery » Sat Sep 01, 2012 11:15 pm

to
l0ch0w wrote:
If you dont know what I am talking about with any of this, then Just get a gen 3 or gen 4 swap and be happy with what you have.

dont talk to me like im a moron, if you read my earlier post you would have seen im gathering parts for my new build, but your right i dont have 50k to drop so i'm researching and planning this build out careful so i can get most for the lest amount of money possible with out have a total peace of crap that im unhappy with. and i know how nitrous works as i have run it in my street/strip cars for about 7years and i do under stand about head efficiency and having a enough fuel system to get it done. but right now im planing out the compression vs turbo size and boost level which when will give enough info to start planning out the fuel system
but anyway ive been reading a few articles and the mr2 guys running this turbo and claiming hp numbers close to the 500hp range and i got looking around and do to the Subaru and srt guys these turbo's are not to badly priced compered to the gt3076r's and gt3071r's that ive been looking into but if i can there on something a little cheaper (and they look to have a better spool time)so why not if it can get me there, that why i asked here in hopes someone has info on if it can on what kind of power you have made or possibility to make
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Re: turbo bearings

Postby l0ch0w » Sun Sep 02, 2012 12:25 am

If your goals are 500whp, the TD06 wouldnt be the best choice for a budget build... The gentlemen on the MR2OC like Eric6 spend lots of money trying to break the 500whp barrier in order to break the record set back in the day by . Substantial VE modification were necessary for him to make the power he already has, and if you continue to read through his thread, you will see that he has had to make ALOT of specialized modification to his engine to top out at like 458whp. On top of that he is in an MR2 which has substantially less drivetrain losses than the alltrac, meaning if you had the exact same motor as Eric, you would probably have less than 420 at the wheels.

My advice to you is to look at getting a precision 5858 or 6262 turbo, you will save yourself money and a big headache. In the turbo world it is better to oversize your turbo by a little bit that way you are operating within its efficiency range.

Here is a short list of the minimum things you will need for 500whp on the 5858 or 6262:

Standalone EMS: $1500 +500 for wiring and sensors
Forged Pistons, Upgraded Rod Bolts and a fully rebuilt bottom end (gaskets and rebuild costs included): $2000
Upgraded fuel pump: $150
1000cc injectors (Recommend ID1000): $500
Precision 5858 turbo: $1000
Tuning: $700
Custom Intake Manifold (recommended for power production and preventing lean condition in cyl2 and cyl3) $800
Custom Exhaust manifold $800 (most big turbos will not work with that crappy log manifold of yours)

Thats about $8k by my calculations, and thats only if you do the majority of the labor yourself. If you have never rebuilt a motor before, its not recommended you do, as it requires many special measurement tools and its recommended you have some experience with it.

I know on the low level I say $8k, but in reality expect to spend in the realm of 10k on your engine before you hit 500ahwp...

donnyavery wrote:dont talk to me like im a moron, if you read my earlier post you would have seen im gathering parts for my new build,


In response to your statement, understand that parts alone will not make your build work... The parts you choose must compliment eachother. Your turbo choice in particular will hinge on your motor's ability to move any given quantity of air through it. If you choose poorly you will get to deal with fun things like compressor surge (like eric6) or unsatisfying turbo lag. I will stress this point. When you can read a turbo compressor map come back here and talk like you are actually educated about the parts you want and have picked for your build.

Regards
-Andrew

A compressor map for you:
Image
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Re: turbo bearings

Postby 4rsnduction » Sun Sep 02, 2012 1:02 am

Im not taking sides here, just sitting on the fence with my 2cents (shit is getting heated :P)
Go to the borgwarner website, there is a matchbot program they have that allows you to fill in some very detailed VE numbers to get accurate compressor maps and wastegate efficiency numbers.
Most of the information will be over your head but they do have tutorials and information to help you understand just how deep the water you are swimming in really is.
You need to understand things like the actual numbers for intercooler and exhaust efficiency, air filter restrictions, turbine and compressor efficiency.....and then there is the exhaust gas expansion ratio which determines what size A/R you use on the hot side to best suit the selected wastegate option, dont forget the pressure differentials between compression and exhaust side, these need to be calculated so your not making vastly different numbers (delta-P is the expansion value)

Once you understand these things (and heaps more) you can move onto learning about how to read a compressor map and what surge limit is and how it relates to different sized compressor housing A/R's and how they effect where your efficiency island lands and where the drop off point is. then u can learn about the exhaust side of things, wheel sizing, housing A/R and wastegate flow.

All of these values that are needed to select the best turbo for your application cannot be acquired from someone else build, they are unique to you and your build and you must do the detective work if u want to spend money effectively.....i mean if u want to waste cash i can give u my paypal address and u can just deposit all your money in there :P j/k
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