Red Top beams into a 165 all-trac

Q&A regarding engines, turbos, and intercoolers and power upgrades

Red Top beams into a 165 all-trac

Postby nw94rs » Sun Sep 30, 2012 10:28 pm

Hello,

Long time reader first time poster, before I start let me mention that I have searched this forum and many others for an answer to my questions.

I'm building my celica for Rally America. A beginner rallyist isn't allowed the use of a turbo until they have gathered enough coefficients(about 4 events) to run a turbo car in their series. But even beyond that the classes that do run turbo's (open/Production) are filled with well funded factory backed teams and production class which means the car has to be run near stock aside from brakes, suspension, & ecu, which would make the all-trac almost worthless compared to a factory evo or sti.

So I have decided to build my all-tracs for Open Light which is a class that allows 4wd car w/ out the use of Turbos, and has a max displacement of 2.6l. The class has really picked up steam and we had 14 entries for Open light this year at our Olympus round in Washington state. Most of the competitors use the Subaru 2.5rs and we even had one sti w/ the turbo removed. I think this will be the right class for myself and the all-trac. Here's my plan.

Originally I was going to take the manifolds off of my 3sgte and just make/source a header and side draft, leave the long block as it is, this would be the easiest solution but I'm sure the car would be a dog and I have a whole year now to build and prep for next year.

I'd like to know about mating a red top beams engine out of an mr2 to an all-trac's running gear. I can figure out the wiring but I want to make sure before I start sourcing a long block that this will work in theory. Thanks for your help I really appreciate it.
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Re: Red Top beams into a 165 all-trac

Postby Mafix » Sun Sep 30, 2012 10:42 pm

honestly i'd look at using the 2.4l vvti motor. the 2az. it's a cheaper and lighter engine. with more displacement and enough aftermarket stuff.
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Re: Red Top beams into a 165 all-trac

Postby rallygarage » Sun Sep 30, 2012 11:07 pm

You are overlookig several other issues. All you have to do is check availability/ligality of diffs and gear ratios. As it is you are going as a beginner in a car that has wrong diffs and no availability of correct diffs. You are lookikg into a class that will not allow you a dog transmission which is the only way to get proper ratios. So as it stands you will have a 2 speed rally car as 2nd and 3rd are the only usable gears. That is before you even get to the engine issue. I only mentioned the tip of an iceberg of problems you are walking into. Sorry to bear the bad news.
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Re: Red Top beams into a 165 all-trac

Postby nw94rs » Sun Sep 30, 2012 11:34 pm

You can run a dog transmission in open light, the gear changes just have to be manually operated(no air or electric shifting aids), I have a hard copy of the rulebook in front of me. There are a handfull of diff's available for the celica, they aren't as readily available as say a subaru or mitsubishi but they are out there.

Right now I have a TRD center differential for an mr2 that will need to be modified, a TRD rear torsen, and a phoenix power final drive. All going into a 205 box. I think w/ 180hp this wouldn't be nearly as bad as you make it sound.

The car I was crewing for this year at olympus was a stock audi 5clyinder, w/ no gearbox upgrades other than a flywheel & clutch. It placed second on the first stage and won the second stage in it's class before it rolled & dnf'd. This is truly a beginner class.

I'm anxious to hear your other reasons this wont work, but more excited to hear from people with an actual answer to my question.
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Re: Red Top beams into a 165 all-trac

Postby fussellbug » Mon Oct 01, 2012 9:23 am

The Beams is a 3S series engine and is normally run with the S54 transmission. That being said, it should bolt up to any transmission run on a 5S or 3S engine. If you decide to go this route, look for a Beams engine from the ST202 Celica SSII or SSIII. The accessory setup on the Celica engine will line up better in the ST185 than the MR2 engine would. I've seen several Beams swaps into the FWD Celicas but never heard of anyone mating it with the AWD transmission.
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Re: Red Top beams into a 165 all-trac

Postby rallygarage » Mon Oct 01, 2012 10:52 am

The only diff available that is of use on gravel is plated rear.If you get a dog box it will come with a final drive. That will also solve your lousy synchro issue. It is possible to machine front and center diffs from other cars to fit. I have never heard of that done in Celica. Audi can run locked diffs in the center and rear. Also plated diffs exist for Audi all around. Front and center for Celica are nearly unobtainable. Maybe you will find something to adapt. You will be first. There is another engline option hat was mentioned here for open light.
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Re: Red Top beams into a 165 all-trac

Postby fussellbug » Mon Oct 01, 2012 2:55 pm

Are you sure you want to go with the Beams?
It's probably doable but going to be expensive to setup and maintain because it was only used in JDM vehicles and parts are scarce. You can get almost as much HP out of a third gen 3S-GE with better parts availability. You could even build a hybrid with 3S-GE head on the 2.2L 5S-FE block to meet your HP goal at a lower cost and with easy parts availability.

Not trying to disuade you from the Beams (I own one) but it would quickly become prohibitively expensive to maintain if you're racing it.
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Re: Red Top beams into a 165 all-trac

Postby nw94rs » Mon Oct 01, 2012 3:09 pm

What would be different on maintaining it in comparison to any of the other Toyota options. Are there specific components that are prone to breaking?

I like the idea of having a high revving motor with variable timing to help with low end torque. I am interested in this rav4 option, is this a motor in the 3s family?
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Re: Red Top beams into a 165 all-trac

Postby fussellbug » Mon Oct 01, 2012 3:24 pm

I don't know what parts would be more prone to breaking than on other engines but any parts specific to the beams engine are not easily available outside Japan because the engine was only sold there.

The variable valve timing also makes tuning the engine difficult compared to other engines without the variable timig system.

If you're looking for more specific Beams info, you should check out http://www.mr2.com/forums/beams-owners-group/. There are several very knowledgeable people there who can answer some of your questions.
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Re: Red Top beams into a 165 all-trac

Postby ALLensTRAC » Mon Oct 01, 2012 3:41 pm

The beams engine will bolt up to the trans but I don't know if the beams block would interfere with the diff/transfer similar to the 5s block. Maybe fusselbug can check for extra webbing since he has one. I agree that using it for competition could get costly as no parts are available in the US. I like the idea of the 5s block 3sge head. Just shave the head down to get the compression up since its na and have some fun. If you blow it up the blocks are super cheap. Check out k.beaty's project thread as he's using a 5s in a 184 for SCCA and he loves them. Good luck with whatever you decide on and make sure to put up racing vids and pics when its done! :D

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Re: Red Top beams into a 165 all-trac

Postby nw94rs » Mon Oct 01, 2012 6:08 pm

Thanks or the replys and info guys.

Any links to these 3s/5sfe builds would be appreciated. The cost and availability is definitely a plus. But I want to make sure it has a broad power band & not just peaky like most n/a engines. That is what initially drew me to the beams.

Also what's involved with mating the 5sfe to the alltrac tranny?
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Re: Red Top beams into a 165 all-trac

Postby ALLensTRAC » Mon Oct 01, 2012 6:17 pm

I honestly haven't heard of a NA 3s/5s but all the high horsepower 3sgte's on here and MR2OC use the 5s block for greater strength. I think with the added displacement of the 5s with the 3sge head would be an awesome NA motor. It would give you some more bottom end with good top end.
The problem with the 5s block is there is reinforcment webbing cast into the block that interferes with the transfer case. You have to machine/grind it off to fit. Also depending on the block it may or may not have all the bolt bosses on the block to mount the transfer support brackets. At the very least you will have to machine the webbing off and drill the mounting holes for the brackets. There are a few projects in here that show what you have to do i.e. MWP, Klas, War Towels. All have done it.
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Re: Red Top beams into a 165 all-trac

Postby fussellbug » Mon Oct 01, 2012 7:52 pm

This information looks promising: http://www.roadandtrack.net.au/images/stories/documents/Building_a_5SG_engine.pdf
and some time spent with Google will give you plenty of other information from people who've done or attempted the 5S-GE engine build.
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Re: Red Top beams into a 165 all-trac

Postby nw94rs » Mon Oct 01, 2012 8:59 pm

Wow that article was very thurough. The 5s w/ 3sgte head sounds very involved.

I'm still interested to know what common problems the beams engine has.

Right now it sounds like in order to run the beams I would need to.

-Possibly modify the block webbing
-Custom wiring w/ stand alone
-Custom header & intake

Where with the 5sfe/3s

Modify the block webbing & transfer case mounting points
Build a bottom end w/ custom rods & pistons (desirable c/r & crank clearance)
Source a gen 2 or 3 head
Run an air cooled oil cooler
Modify oil squirters
Deck the head
Header & Intake
Custom wiring

I can get a red top for around $1000, I imagine I'd be $1000 into just machine work for the 5s
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Re: Red Top beams into a 165 all-trac

Postby underscore » Mon Oct 01, 2012 9:12 pm

With either setup, you'll want to refresh it before it goes in. And if something does go wrong (you did say you're racing this afterall) a 5S/3S combo would likely be easier to get parts for.
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