Red Top beams into a 165 all-trac

Q&A regarding engines, turbos, and intercoolers and power upgrades

Re: Red Top beams into a 165 all-trac

Postby fussellbug » Mon Oct 01, 2012 9:25 pm

I wish I had gotten my Beams for $1000! The engine and trans cost me almost $2k plus tons of time and extra parts to fit my ST184.

The biggest drawback to the Beams really is parts availability (or lack thereof). Before you buy, keep in mind that a simple thing like a water pump will cost you dearly and be almost impossible to get. As far as I know, Toyota Japan still provides part support for these engines but getting the parts from Japan is not easy.

*EDIT*: Looking back through my receipts I found a place that may be helpful for Beams parts. http://www.chicoraceworks.com/ is a company that specializes in MR2s but also keeps some essential Beams parts in stock. I got my water pump, oil pump, timing belt, and timing idlers and tensioner from there last year.
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Re: Red Top beams into a 165 all-trac

Postby Mafix » Mon Oct 01, 2012 10:26 pm

i'm guessing you didn't even look into what i said? mabye because nobody here has done that yet?

also, if my memory is correct...rallygarage knows what he is on about. i might be wrong there.
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Re: Red Top beams into a 165 all-trac

Postby nw94rs » Tue Oct 02, 2012 1:53 am

RallyGarage may know what he's talking about in terms of building a competitive open class celica to compete w/ the likes of ken block & David Higgins. But what I'm building is a much simpiler beast to put it simply a dog box transmission has no place in the class that I will be racing in. While its allowed, that transmission alone would have cost more than most teams entire car.

I looked at Rallygarage's posts on here and 90% of them come with this holier than thou undertone, or a your parts suck, but MY car has the greatest parts. All with no pictures of said parts, or car, or reference to who he is, or what shop he represents. If I wanted to hear how bad of a car the celica is I could go Specialstage.com
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Re: Red Top beams into a 165 all-trac

Postby Lamont » Tue Oct 02, 2012 11:32 am

nw94rs wrote:RallyGarage may know what he's talking about in terms of building a competitive open class celica to compete w/ the likes of ken block & David Higgins. But what I'm building is a much simpiler beast to put it simply a dog box transmission has no place in the class that I will be racing in. While its allowed, that transmission alone would have cost more than most teams entire car.

I looked at Rallygarage's posts on here and 90% of them come with this holier than thou undertone, or a your parts suck, but MY car has the greatest parts. All with no pictures of said parts, or car, or reference to who he is, or what shop he represents. If I wanted to hear how bad of a car the celica is I could go Specialstage.com


I think you have a problem with outside opinions and in my opinion that has no place on an open forum. If you didn't want any input on your proposed setup you had in mind why not just build what you want and then post what your results were or not. You wanted input and you are getting it. Now I have read this entire thread and no matter what anyone has told you it looks like you are going with the Beams. So here what you should do; try it and make a build thread documenting your progress, but being an open forum people will post there opinions on your progress. Use this forum for help on your build not to flame when someone is trying to help you from stepping into a world of pain and disappointment. The Beams is a great engine there is no doubt there but it has its drawbacks which you will find out after thousands invested and a few seasons racing one.
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Re: Red Top beams into a 165 all-trac

Postby underscore » Tue Oct 02, 2012 3:30 pm

Lamont wrote:
nw94rs wrote:RallyGarage may know what he's talking about in terms of building a competitive open class celica to compete w/ the likes of ken block & David Higgins. But what I'm building is a much simpiler beast to put it simply a dog box transmission has no place in the class that I will be racing in. While its allowed, that transmission alone would have cost more than most teams entire car.

I looked at Rallygarage's posts on here and 90% of them come with this holier than thou undertone, or a your parts suck, but MY car has the greatest parts. All with no pictures of said parts, or car, or reference to who he is, or what shop he represents. If I wanted to hear how bad of a car the celica is I could go Specialstage.com


I think you have a problem with outside opinions and in my opinion that has no place on an open forum. If you didn't want any input on your proposed setup you had in mind why not just build what you want and then post what your results were or not. You wanted input and you are getting it. Now I have read this entire thread and no matter what anyone has told you it looks like you are going with the Beams. So here what you should do; try it and make a build thread documenting your progress, but being an open forum people will post there opinions on your progress. Use this forum for help on your build not to flame when someone is trying to help you from stepping into a world of pain and disappointment. The Beams is a great engine there is no doubt there but it has its drawbacks which you will find out after thousands invested and a few seasons racing one.


He has a good point though, like he said this is an amateur class, no ones running dog boxes or custom diffs or stuff like that...
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Re: Red Top beams into a 165 all-trac

Postby nw94rs » Tue Oct 02, 2012 3:38 pm

I appreciate everyone's ideas and thoughts on making 180hp out of an N/A alltrac. I have replied with questions to everyone's comments. I've asked a few times now what's a common weak point in the beams engine, & right now it sounds like the only issue is the wait time involved when you do break something. Which is somewhat common w/ the 3sgte (I've been waiting over a month for injector seals). I've researched every idea mentioned here & weighed them on cost/benefit/reliability. However the title of this thread is Beams into a Toyota alltrac, I am interested in knowing more about the Beams, as its performance out of the box is desirable on paper.

I have a back ground in building high strung N/A road racing Hondas & the 3s/5s sounds eerily similar to a common swap called the ls or b20vtec, which do have there place, but never in my experience last long in an actual racing environment. I'll always advise a novice/club level customer to purchase a fresh/new factory long block, make the motor breath better, manipulate the ecu & go have fun. I have customers still on their 1st motor w/ 100k miles of actual racing just adding oil. Now with the Toyota I'm trying to heed my own advice with a different marquee.

My beef w/ rally garage comes from his attitude in his post and several other posts regarding rally. I have been involved in North American rally and tsd's for a long time. It doesn't take a $30k dollar transmissions to have fun and be competitive in specific clubman classes.
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Re: Red Top beams into a 165 all-trac

Postby ALLensTRAC » Thu Oct 04, 2012 3:55 pm

I only know of one weakness with the beams and its the same as the Caldina: the rods. Since this will be NA just get a low mileage engine and do the simple stuff to make it breathe and fart better. I for one want to see the beams in an alltrac just cuz it would be different(the whole reason I got an alltrac and not an mr2). Have you thought about the 1mz swap? Super cheap and reliable as all hell!

Just get the damn engine, put it in, run the shit out of it and post rally vids! We don't have rally anything on this giant beach I live on lol.
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Re: Red Top beams into a 165 all-trac

Postby fussellbug » Thu Oct 04, 2012 5:51 pm

So I have decided to build my all-tracs for Open Light which is a class that allows 4wd car w/ out the use of Turbos, and has a max displacement of 2.6l.


The displacement of the 1MZ would be too high for the class he wants to race.
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Re: Red Top beams into a 165 all-trac

Postby ALLensTRAC » Thu Oct 04, 2012 6:36 pm

Oops missed that :oops: . I guess you could get the old 2.5 v6 from an es250 :shrug:
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Re: Red Top beams into a 165 all-trac

Postby Mafix » Thu Oct 04, 2012 8:32 pm

he was only trying to help. you are being rather defensive. open your mind up and just read. you don't have to respond or check everyones backround to take/or not take advise. nobody said you HAVE to do this and that. and as i read it it only states common facts.
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Re: Red Top beams into a 165 all-trac

Postby nw94rs » Fri Oct 05, 2012 6:23 am

Thank you for the replys. I appreciate all the ideas. I'd like to hear more about the 2az, would this long block mate to the alltrac drivetrain?
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Re: Red Top beams into a 165 all-trac

Postby Mafix » Fri Oct 05, 2012 3:36 pm

yes, all 2az manual transmission are "e" series.
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Re: Red Top beams into a 165 all-trac

Postby nw94rs » Fri Oct 05, 2012 6:39 pm

http://www.rollaclub.com/board/topic/54227-the-rwd-2az-fe-thread/

Just spent some time reading up on the 2az, and this actually seems like a very good idea, I would still need to up the compression, but the price, displacement, and availability puts it at the top of my list. Just off of a quick Craigslist search I found a motor for $300.

I also read of people using the pistons from the 2az hybrid to up the compression to the 11:1 area.

I imagine the motor would be quite a bit lighter than the 3sgte as well with its all aluminum block & head. This motor was also available in the Camry, Corrolla, matrix, tc, Xb, & xa. With the most desirable variant coming from the tc.

Thanks for the heads up Mafix, I think I'm going to pull the trigger on a blown up 2az and see how it all mates up.
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Re: Red Top beams into a 165 all-trac

Postby phattyduck » Fri Oct 05, 2012 7:59 pm

nw94rs wrote:Thanks for the heads up Mafix, I think I'm going to pull the trigger on a blown up 2az and see how it all mates up.
We all want pics. :D

I think the biggest worry will be clearance at the back of the block. I would imagine an aluminum block might be thicker or have deeper ribs back there. Custom transfer case brackets will also be necessary.

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Re: Red Top beams into a 165 all-trac

Postby l0ch0w » Sat Oct 06, 2012 12:55 pm

You could do things the hard way and swap in something like a 4gr-fse... Would give you more power and torque than the stock turbo anyways :) And would fit within the rules...

Also, PM me, I can get you any part you want for your BEAMS motor when the time comes...
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