3rd/4th gen 3sgte in 165 educate me

Q&A regarding engines, turbos, and intercoolers and power upgrades

3rd/4th gen 3sgte in 165 educate me

Postby sinerasis » Wed Nov 14, 2012 2:49 am

Any good threads out there that document exactly what needs to be done for this?

My goal isn't tons of power, but would take it along with the reliability of a newer engine. If you were to swap a stock motor and plan to keep it stock, which would be your choice?

My searching thus far basically says just make sure you get all the sensors, ecu and wire harness and it's no big deal other than having to lengthen the harness for a LHD car. Am I missing something?

I'm doing my research right now and want as much info as possible. My thinking says go for the 4th gen even though it's less charted territory. I don't care about the manifold/turbo issue or the weaker internals as long as it's build correctly for what it is from the factory. I can't really tell, but does the 4th gen use a air flow sensor? Some of the pictures I've seen make it look like it's just an regular intake.

I'm assuming parts are a lot easier to come by for the 3rd gen motor though.

The 4th gen has an air/air intercooler and the 3rd gen has water/air. I would imagine a water cooler would be better if I didn't want to cut up the hood. Should be easy enough to swap a water cooler on the 4th gen right? I would rather not do front mount.

I've seen issues with getting the gauges to work (although I believe the threads I saw were talking more with a 185). Needs a gear or adapter or something? Has that been a problem for people to sort out?
Members don't see the above ad. Register now - it's free!
Jeff
1989 ST165 Black
User avatar
sinerasis
Club Member
 
Posts: 198
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2012 9:34 pm
Location: Maine

1989 Toyota Celica

Re: 3rd/4th gen 3sgte in 165 educate me

Postby urbandork » Wed Nov 14, 2012 3:36 am

study and know the ewd for both the 165 and the 205 very well. interfacing the 205 engine wiring harness into the the 165 wiring usually is the most difficult part.
urbandork
Club Member
 
Posts: 402
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2005 5:27 am

Re: 3rd/4th gen 3sgte in 165 educate me

Postby sinerasis » Wed Nov 14, 2012 4:04 am

ewd = electrical wiring diagram? These are in the repair manuals correct?
Jeff
1989 ST165 Black
User avatar
sinerasis
Club Member
 
Posts: 198
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2012 9:34 pm
Location: Maine

1989 Toyota Celica

Re: 3rd/4th gen 3sgte in 165 educate me

Postby celicast184 » Wed Nov 14, 2012 6:15 am

i recomend 4th gen swap to be most reliable. it makes a good amount of power without breaking a sweat. the caldina awd trans do require a running gear inside to get your manual dash to work. i see you are swapping into a st165 so your factory trans will bolt up. only reason why i would swap trans is if your st165 trans is grinding or starting to go out.
Image
I <3 MY ST214
User avatar
celicast184
Club Member
 
Posts: 732
Images: 0
Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 5:05 pm

Re: 3rd/4th gen 3sgte in 165 educate me

Postby monkey8oi » Wed Nov 14, 2012 4:19 pm

My opinion's a little biased leaning more towards the gen3 only because i have the gen3 in my 165 and love it.. when you pick out the motor to buy, just make sure it comes with motor, trans, harness, and ecu.. The hardest part after that would be converting the harness to a LHD which would be a pain if you didn't know what you were doing.. you could probably send the harness out to someone like Dr. Tweek to get it done but would cost a pretty $$.. Other than that, i think you would also need to source a st205 igniter, swap out the 205 gear sensor on the trans with your 165 one.. That's all i can think of off the top of my head..
monkey8oi
Club Member
 
Posts: 777
Joined: Tue Aug 31, 2004 5:11 pm
Location: South San Francisco

1988 Toyota Celica

Re: 3rd/4th gen 3sgte in 165 educate me

Postby MrMcQuacker » Wed Nov 14, 2012 4:56 pm

Jeff and Zen are both Biased lol :) Jk. Well I wouldn't mind going 4th. More power and its lighter I think. Thing is the 4th gen is reliable and stronger in terms of Stock Condition. But if you were and most likely you will turn up the boost a bit, Then the 3gen comes in to play. 3rd gen would be better in terms of making more power with the current set up. 4th gen keep it stock no more than like what 15psi, Your good. 3gen supposedly you can boost higher like anywhere between 17-20psi on stock internals and turbo its still good, all you will need is bigger injectors and possible EMS. So its all up to you really! Happy Hunting :)

Then again if you go with the 4th gen and replace the internals and turbo you have a better power plant over the 3rd gen because I was told the 4th gen block is actually stronger. But so is the 5s block too. YA!!!! ok so good luck 8)
MrMcQuacker
Club Member
 
Posts: 539
Joined: Sun Aug 17, 2008 11:47 pm
Location: California/NH

Re: 3rd/4th gen 3sgte in 165 educate me

Postby sinerasis » Wed Nov 14, 2012 5:18 pm

Hehe... so lets say my power goals were somewhere right around where the 4th is at (260ish). I honestly don't anticipate having the need for much more. That's already a 70 horse jump from the 1st gen motor (power for each gen taken from this thread).

The 3rd gen shouldn't have any problems doing that with just a boost controller. So I would assume it may have an advantage in that it would come with a water/air intercooler, has more people that know about it and probably has more parts available? Things break. It might be better to look at the engine that I'll be able to get parts for easier. The 4th gen was only available in Japan correct?

Is there a comparison of how much each weighs around somewhere?
Jeff
1989 ST165 Black
User avatar
sinerasis
Club Member
 
Posts: 198
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2012 9:34 pm
Location: Maine

1989 Toyota Celica

Re: 3rd/4th gen 3sgte in 165 educate me

Postby MrMcQuacker » Wed Nov 14, 2012 5:26 pm

Well if ur going to look at it that way. 4th gen only in japan maybe not sure. 3rd gen also Japan and Canada and aus. 3rd and 4th never came to the us from what I understand. Not quite sure where else the 4th gens were manufacterd at. But if they were in Canada and Aus as well. Then that would be good. 3rd and 4th have the same resourcable parts.
MrMcQuacker
Club Member
 
Posts: 539
Joined: Sun Aug 17, 2008 11:47 pm
Location: California/NH

Re: 3rd/4th gen 3sgte in 165 educate me

Postby monkey8oi » Wed Nov 14, 2012 10:32 pm

3rd or 4th gen will get you pretty close to your power levels.. but i'll tell you right now, i DIDN'T anticipate on needing more power too.. but no one ever NEEDS more power but everyone WANTS more power!! :rofl: i was pretty satisfied with the power of the gen3 for the first 6months.. lol.. but here i am with a new power goals.. lol..

but for the ease of it, i would recommend the 3rd gen only because sourcing parts would be slightly easier.. you still have the option of looking on the mr2 boards for parts.. but not too many places to source gen4 parts that i know of but celicast184 would know more about this as he's got the 4th gen swap in his car..
monkey8oi
Club Member
 
Posts: 777
Joined: Tue Aug 31, 2004 5:11 pm
Location: South San Francisco

1988 Toyota Celica

Re: 3rd/4th gen 3sgte in 165 educate me

Postby monkey8oi » Wed Nov 14, 2012 10:35 pm

@MrMcQuacker - sup mike, sorry i didn't get to call you back that day.. was on my way to work.. talked to chris and he said the easiest thing for your gen3 swap is to use you gen3 motor, trans, and ecu.. you would have to modify (lengthen) your harness to work with the LHD... other than that, you need the 205 igniter and gear sensor on the trans to make the rpm on the cluster to work.. hit me up if you got other questions..
monkey8oi
Club Member
 
Posts: 777
Joined: Tue Aug 31, 2004 5:11 pm
Location: South San Francisco

1988 Toyota Celica

Re: 3rd/4th gen 3sgte in 165 educate me

Postby urbandork » Fri Nov 16, 2012 6:17 am

monkey8oi wrote:Other than that, i think you would also need to source a st205 igniter, swap out the 205 gear sensor on the trans with your 165 one.. That's all i can think of off the top of my head..


st204 and st205 have the same igniter if one is needed

for sure get a clip with all of the harness... this includes w2a intercooler pump stuff if you go with a 3rd. as well as other relay boxes in the engine bay which some times are cut from a non clip purchase.

as far as the 3rd vs 4th then 3sgte... id still go 3rd cus always comes with the manual trans (e154f) which is one of the best out of all of the generations/variations vs the 4th gen 3sgtes which usually come with an auto trans. However if ur looking to go auto then the 4th is a great option too.
urbandork
Club Member
 
Posts: 402
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2005 5:27 am

Re: 3rd/4th gen 3sgte in 165 educate me

Postby celicast184 » Fri Nov 16, 2012 9:01 am

4th gen and 3rd gen parts are jus as hard to source as they both didnt make it to the us. they both share same headgasket, cam seals, front seal, rear main seals, timing belt. 3rd gen is a great motor, but 4th gen will have you setup for future power goals. the coil on plug setup has ignitors built in them so you dont need to hunt any down as well as the single ignition coil. also, injectors are top feed 540s and are high impedance so you can get rid of that clump of resistor packs in the engine bay. the head is proven to flow alot better than the 3rd gen and doesnt have the lean issue in cylinder number 3 due to the side feed manifold vs centerfeed. the intake cam is different from 3rd gen because of the trigger arm at the end of camshaft to run the direct ignition but the exhaust cam is the same part number.. the throttle body inlet has been opened up little from the 3rd gen. the block is stronger and has been revised from the 3rd gen due to the 3rd gen block cracking around the water pump area. the oil pump is a high flow unit compared to the 3rd gen and if you search it, theres a member on here building a hybrid 3rd gen head 4th gen block to utilize the oiling system. 4th gen runs on a 9:1 comp ratio to gain more torque at lower rpms. fuel cut on this motor is set 21psi so running 16-17 psi daily is ok. the turbo is a one piece casted manifold to help spooling of the turbo compared to having a gasket smashed between the turbo and manifold(possible leaks between there.) the turbo was said to be econel but was told it was also ceramic, same as 3rd gen and im still figuring that one out. tune up on the 4th gen motor is oil change and iridium plugs only, so no more hunting for caps/rotors/plug wires/etc. I jus finished this swap into my friends mr2 ( given weight difference) but his car virtually has no turbo lag at all. it boosts in every gear everytime you get on the throttle. 4th gen is a good power builder jus as well as the 3rd gen in exception of the thinner connecting rods on the 4th gen. this was done to help the 4th gen be a much more rev happy motor but i feel the 4th gen can hold reliably to 300-350 whp but it has not been proven yet compared to the 3rd gen, as there has been many who has put down more than 400hp on stock 3rd gen block. this is why i favor the 4th gen over the 3rd because i feel its been over engineered with very little people who is willing to try it out and lay down some good proven numbers. its the lack of information on the motor that shys everyone one away from the swap.
Image
I <3 MY ST214
User avatar
celicast184
Club Member
 
Posts: 732
Images: 0
Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 5:05 pm

Re: 3rd/4th gen 3sgte in 165 educate me

Postby sinerasis » Fri Nov 16, 2012 4:17 pm

That's some good info right there... thanks.
Jeff
1989 ST165 Black
User avatar
sinerasis
Club Member
 
Posts: 198
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2012 9:34 pm
Location: Maine

1989 Toyota Celica

Re: 3rd/4th gen 3sgte in 165 educate me

Postby celicast184 » Fri Nov 16, 2012 5:59 pm

urbans got a point too about being auto. me and tubasteve had the same thought about that. imagine a fully running alltrac that is auto with paddle shifters!! how kool would that be!!! virtual no boost lag between shifts and shifting is quick as a push of a button..
Image
I <3 MY ST214
User avatar
celicast184
Club Member
 
Posts: 732
Images: 0
Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 5:05 pm

Re: 3rd/4th gen 3sgte in 165 educate me

Postby sinerasis » Fri Nov 16, 2012 6:30 pm

Not interested in auto, not that there's anything wrong with that.

I've seen 2 4th gens with manual awd transmissions on ebay over the past week or so. I don't think getting what I want would be the problem...
Jeff
1989 ST165 Black
User avatar
sinerasis
Club Member
 
Posts: 198
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2012 9:34 pm
Location: Maine

1989 Toyota Celica

Next

Return to Performance and Power

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests