Water Meth injection with W2A IC?!

Q&A regarding engines, turbos, and intercoolers and power upgrades

Re: Water Meth injection with W2A IC?!

Postby klue » Sun Dec 02, 2012 7:39 pm

zero06 wrote:this topic is about water meth injection, not anti-lag methods... soo lets get off of that

my problem is that I am getting boost creep under WOT with the ct27 + my 3" exhaust...
with silencer in I am getting slow creep from 15-18 psi. my wastegate isn't flowing enough. and no its not the downpipe, I have already checked.

I'm looking at water meth as a safety net. anyone know of any good systems? Kit's or ways to make one using the w2a IC?





I think its a bad idea to use the WI instead of fixing your issue. when you took the DP off, did you check to see how much the waste gate door is opening? and at what PSI?

I'm assuming you've got a full 3" exhaust What downpipe are you using?
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Re: Water Meth injection with W2A IC?!

Postby Mafix » Sun Dec 02, 2012 8:28 pm

if this isn't a track only car then you are masking a problem with a bandaid. might i subscribe some reading from corky bell.
your complaints of boost creep are from the terrible wastegate. fixing that will solve everything.

and not to sound rude...
but am i the only person that can't understand why people use WTA on street cars? FMIC are cheap and easy. even a proper setup is cheap compared to wta. i've never seen a wta yeild temps that i get with my fmic, even on the hottest days. and until i can see proof that i'm wrong, which doesn't exsist on anything run for more than a couple minutes without adding any additional weight, i'll stick to tried and true.

MXP is building a monster. a bit of an exception.
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Re: Water Meth injection with W2A IC?!

Postby klue » Sun Dec 02, 2012 9:02 pm

Having used both systems, the FMIC definitely gives you cooler temperatures. You are after all cooling directly with the ambient air. The WTA is only cooling the coolant from ambient air, which in turn must then transfer the head from the charge. Lack of efficiency there for sure. But the WTA temperatures are far more stable, it is less susceptible to quick changes in temperature and heat soak. You also have the option to cool the charge beyond ambient using ice. Or for those that are a little more challenged using freon. I've tried force cooling the charge with air condition systems but had major issues with water condensing in the charge cooler. It was a fun experiment

FMIC has given me stable tempatures on track, but thats only after using a massive core. Downside to that, all the hot air coming out the back of my FMIC goes into the radiator reducing its efficiency and on some examples leads to cooling issues.

ugh the debate could be endless, both systems can work well when properly engineered
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Re: Water Meth injection with W2A IC?!

Postby underscore » Sun Dec 02, 2012 9:16 pm

Why worry about a bit of added weight on a street car? Isn't there more lag with a FMIC as well? Not to mention added cost for no apparent reason if you've already got a WTA.

And then of course there's the cool factor :D
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Re: Water Meth injection with W2A IC?!

Postby aus jd 2703 » Sun Dec 02, 2012 11:53 pm

I am curious about real results from a mist before the turbo, there has been lots of talk about this and apparently with current nozzles you can safely do it, but what i am curious about is actual results? do you feel a difference?
as for the waste gate creep the more i read the more i realize this is a real issue for CT2x turbos, what are the options to prevent creep if you need to run a CT2x turbo? apart from a spacer plate and another waste gate?
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Re: Water Meth injection with W2A IC?!

Postby Mafix » Wed Dec 05, 2012 1:33 pm

underscore wrote:Why worry about a bit of added weight on a street car? Isn't there more lag with a FMIC as well? Not to mention added cost for no apparent reason if you've already got a WTA.

And then of course there's the cool factor :D

there is no added lag. i've never seen any proof or felt any difference in lag period.
a proper super light fmic like mine is about 1300 with the bov and everything else...a stock rc or 205 setup will run about 700 used. but you are limited in power levels due to size.

it is a never ending arguement. but i stand to say: street car = fmic race car=wta

of course there are exceptions.
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Re: Water Meth injection with W2A IC?!

Postby Mafix » Wed Dec 05, 2012 2:20 pm

a small exert in this:
what i'm talking about applies to cars with the engine in the front. it's completely different with other setups.
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Re: Water Meth injection with W2A IC?!

Postby underscore » Wed Dec 05, 2012 3:52 pm

Mafix wrote:there is no added lag. i've never seen any proof or felt any difference in lag period.


I have a hard time believing this when the piping becomes many, many times longer than the couple inches of couplers a top mount has, plus most of the cores I see used to to have 1.5-2x the capacity of the OEM WTA. Especially with a BOV, has anyone actually measured a properly function WTA system vs a FMIC, or is this all butt dyno stuff?

Mafix wrote:a proper super light fmic like mine is about 1300 with the bov and everything else...a stock rc or 205 setup will run about 700 used.


I only said its an added cost if you've already got WTA, there's also a lot more hassle involved in trying to add a WTA system to an ATA car. Regardless, that's still $600 most people would prefer to spend on something else.

Mafix wrote:but you are limited in power levels due to size.


How so? I've heard that the RC/CS setup can be good up to 600HP with an upgraded core at the front. That's plenty for most people
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Re: Water Meth injection with W2A IC?!

Postby Mafix » Wed Dec 05, 2012 4:44 pm

underscore wrote:
Mafix wrote:there is no added lag. i've never seen any proof or felt any difference in lag period.


I have a hard time believing this when the piping becomes many, many times longer than the couple inches of couplers a top mount has, plus most of the cores I see used to to have 1.5-2x the capacity of the OEM WTA. Especially with a BOV, has anyone actually measured a properly function WTA system vs a FMIC, or is this all butt dyno stuff?

Mafix wrote:a proper super light fmic like mine is about 1300 with the bov and everything else...a stock rc or 205 setup will run about 700 used.


I only said its an added cost if you've already got WTA, there's also a lot more hassle involved in trying to add a WTA system to an ATA car. Regardless, that's still $600 most people would prefer to spend on something else.

Mafix wrote:but you are limited in power levels due to size.


How so? I've heard that the RC/CS setup can be good up to 600HP with an upgraded core at the front. That's plenty for most people


you can have very long pipes and no lag. it starts life as a vacuum system then goes to pressure. simple fluid dynamics. we are not talking hundreds of feet. and PROPER intercoolers...not shitty ones from the 90's.

in the USA...NO celica came with a good wta system. and then you are buying used parts with a prayer they actually work.

and your final point is HEARD. i've seen many dynos that they become a bother at about 400bhp. more with ice loaded in the system but then i can freeze my fmic with some co2 or nos and get the same effect. i'd love to see say...trevors car with a rc or 205 cooler on it. that would be a hoot. i'd bet he would loose nearly 100 hp as compared to his current setup. or god forbid pat...the coupler would never hold the boost he runs.

and yes PROPER setups are not cheap. hell look at the thread about the evolution of my FMIC system. it's finally done. like 10 years later or something stupid like that. using money as an example of one thing being better than the other is not valid. there are always deals to be had. i was only throwing prices out there for members to see. and if i was pushing fmics why the hell would i post up those prices?

the point of this thread: meth injection on a stock wta system, in the original posters request, will not solve his problem nor will it help him. he needs to fix his boost creep.
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Re: Water Meth injection with W2A IC?!

Postby underscore » Wed Dec 05, 2012 8:21 pm

Mafix wrote:you can have very long pipes and no lag. it starts life as a vacuum system then goes to pressure. simple fluid dynamics. we are not talking hundreds of feet.


No, but we're talking about many times the volume of air to be pressurized.

Mafix wrote:in the USA...NO celica came with a good wta system.


There is a world outside the USA :lol: . And anyone with an RC/CS/205 halfcut has a full WTA system to put in.

Mafix wrote:and your final point is HEARD. i've seen many dynos that they become a bother at about 400bhp. more with ice loaded in the system but then i can freeze my fmic with some co2 or nos and get the same effect. i'd love to see say...trevors car with a rc or 205 cooler on it. that would be a hoot. i'd bet he would loose nearly 100 hp as compared to his current setup. or god forbid pat...the coupler would never hold the boost he runs.


400bhp on what setup? Stock RC/CS? Stock 205? Upgraded front cores or stock? Upgraded pumps or stock? Pat makes double the power I was saying they were good to at the crank, so that's a moot point. I'd be curious to see what a fully custom system could do though.

Mafix wrote:the point of this thread: meth injection on a stock wta system, in the original posters request, will not solve his problem nor will it help him. he needs to fix his boost creep.


His original question was how to mount the meth injector, this thread has nothing to do with boost creep.
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Re: Water Meth injection with W2A IC?!

Postby Mafix » Thu Dec 06, 2012 1:26 am

klue wrote:
zero06 wrote:this topic is about water meth injection, not anti-lag methods... soo lets get off of that

my problem is that I am getting boost creep under WOT with the ct27 + my 3" exhaust...
with silencer in I am getting slow creep from 15-18 psi. my wastegate isn't flowing enough. and no its not the downpipe, I have already checked.

I'm looking at water meth as a safety net. anyone know of any good systems? Kit's or ways to make one using the w2a IC?


eh hem....


and i do realize that the usa isn't the world. hence why i was talking about BHP not WHP.

and with the volume of air...if you don't care to look at how things work going from a vacuum to pressure then please show me dyno results that confirm your claim. i've never seen one.

and did i not explain that there are several examples of cars? perhaps i should check and quote myself? i just threw a couple out there. to me it only makes sense to build a proper system. if you want a 300whp car then use wta. go ahead. i'm not saying you shouldn't. but i AM saying that in a street car there is no reason to stay with a 15 year old design and swear by it. that is plain silly. simple front mounts that outperform the best wta you can make with a 205 cooler and cost less. mine is excessive and overkill.

but please PROVE me wrong. there isn't any example out there. period.

and please zero...fix your creep first!
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Re: Water Meth injection with W2A IC?!

Postby underscore » Thu Dec 06, 2012 4:47 am

Fair enough, but that's not the original post. My bad. As far as WTA vs ATA...

http://www.are.com.au/techtalk/intecool ... urbo%20Lag

For our cars, FMIC volume > TMIC volume = FMIC response < TMIC response. Less volume = faster pressurization = faster response.
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Re: Water Meth injection with W2A IC?!

Postby Mafix » Thu Dec 06, 2012 7:08 am

i'll save everyone a trip to that horrid website that is trying to sell products and show some "in house" computer program designs. all they are saying in that terrible program is that if you use an intercooler the size of a house it will cause lag. that's common sense i thought?
"We have been using these figures (in house developed computer programme) for years to help us design ic. systems for customers, maybe that's why so many of our customers speak so highly of the results our products provide" (from website...yeah because if i wanted to sell you things, i'd tell you the same thing)

the reality of things are you might see a couple hundred rpm difference, literally 1 or 2 hundred. i doubt it. but we still have NO dynos. must be a reason for that? seriously i hope you can prove me wrong. good luck.
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Re: Water Meth injection with W2A IC?!

Postby underscore » Fri Dec 07, 2012 2:55 am

In that case do you have some dynos backing up your claims?
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Re: Water Meth injection with W2A IC?!

Postby l0ch0w » Fri Dec 07, 2012 5:57 am

Um.. Let me share a tidbit... The Gen 2 Cold start injector is the same part number used in the ST205 WRC model as a water/meth injector ...

Im too lazy right now to dig up all the documentation on it, but trust me... the homologation WRC ST205s use the same part number injector as the CSI for its water injection nozzle.

This answers the OP's question about whether or not water injection was ever used on a A2W system... And im telling you that it was, it was post throttle body, and it was available OEM (albeit deactivated)

In order to run a water injection system inside the intake manifold I would imagine it would be really cool for you to setup a map within a standalone EMS to control the flow of water/meth to help conserve fluids :)
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