REFRIGERATED Intercooler-needs input

Q&A regarding engines, turbos, and intercoolers and power upgrades

Re: REFRIGERATED Intercooler-needs input

Postby klue » Sat Feb 09, 2013 12:43 am

Certainly not doubting weather or not it works, as I said I had run my own refrigerated system but we had issues with condensation in the humid hot Caribbean climate. On a good carburetor setup the fuel atomization is better than on a fuel injected engine(at least the 3sgte). The fuel has time to properly mix with the air and you get a good power result.

We are getting into grey areas I dont like, using words like lean vs rich is very vauge but for the sake of argument lets continue. Yes a lean mixture will burn hotter than a rich one, and generally produce a higher EGT all other things the same. But this is kind of straying from the point I was originally get at.
As you lower the temperature further and further, the oxygen content increases as the charge density does. So you need to add more fuel to maintain the same AFR regardless of weather you would consider it lean rich or stoich. This is what produces the bigger bang, and more power associated with colder air nothing else (unless you can run more timing which is a whole different discussion). Now the problem I see with trying to run lean + this super cool charge we are creating is as you cool the charge further and further the atomization(suspension of fuel VAPOR withing the air fuel mixture) becomes poor. In other words instead of a nice fuel vapor, the fuel remains big droplets which do not burn the as complete and explosively as a nice mix.

To counter this poor mixture you need to add even more fuel to get the engine happy, an example of this is a cold engine requires a significant amount more fuel (richer AFR) to run properly even though it seems kind of counter correct. I guess that sums up the issue with the atomization I had, In my experience alone. I can not say for yours or how well it will run, but hopefully I can share some info that you may find useful in your build. It is never my objective to discourage blossoming ideas, go for it!

Luke
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Re: REFRIGERATED Intercooler-needs input

Postby l0ch0w » Sat Feb 09, 2013 5:25 am

My biggest concern is that because charge temps will be so low at idle, (well below ambient) that fuel mileage will really suck. That coupled with the more than likely modest drops in IATs under full boost when compared to just a well designed A2W system makes me wonder if the effort is worth all the fuss. Im totally prepared to eat crow here, but I would really love to see someone make a feasibly effective and inexpensive refrigerated charge cooler that makes it worth it.

Ill throw something out here, has anyone tried running refrigerant direct through laminova or just a striaight AC evaporator and totally bypassing the water system as a whole??? That to me would seem much more effective because you could potentially throttle the refrigerant flow to restrict over-cooling under idle conditions... Ice formation and excess condensation could be managed through throttling refrigerant and a thermister to monitor incoming charge temperatures and refrigerant temperature. Water in the intakes is not that bad of a thing anyways... as long as it doesnt form ice...
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Re: REFRIGERATED Intercooler-needs input

Postby klue » Sat Feb 09, 2013 3:56 pm

l0chow

we had the compressor set up to turn off below 1500rpm and above 6500(seemed to grenade after that lol). At the same time fuel demands at idle are much less than load conditions so with the right tuning you can run a much much leaner mixture
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Re: REFRIGERATED Intercooler-needs input

Postby Overtriped » Sat Feb 09, 2013 6:59 pm

So your thinking get rid of the ATW and flooding
The Intercooler with liquid refrigerant? That's a lot
Of gas, would have to have a surge tank to
Reserve the gas for when you need it.
Typically there would a solonoid that is actuated by the thermostat via thermistor at a
Determined setpoint. (The thermistor is placed in the evap) - regulating the temp is doable. Also the TXV has a power head that measures evap discharge temp and meters the amount of refrigerant going through The evap. Once the system satisfys Temp the solonoid will close and the system
Will shut down on low pressure. Once the pressure rises
It will either pump down again to the receiver/condenser,
Or open the solenoid and start the cooling process again. On a side
Note I wouldn't need it on a day like this. System Might not even run.
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Re: REFRIGERATED Intercooler-needs input

Postby Overtriped » Sat Feb 09, 2013 7:49 pm

Just remembered that there are also "static" evaporators that actually use the frozen condensate to further cool and reduce the load. Coil covered in ice isn't always a bad Thing... As long as your compressor isn't being slugged with liquid, which there are ways around That by adjusting your superheat and by adding a suction line accumulator which helps the liquid refrigerant boil off to vapor, just prior to the compressor. Liquid refrigerant is a compressors worst enemy. It will migrate the oil and wash the oil surfaces leading to failure. This is what happeneds
To a compressor slugged with liquid-
Image that's a 20hp 4 cyl copeland( obviously much different then ours
But the same thing would happen.)
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Re: REFRIGERATED Intercooler-needs input

Postby l0ch0w » Sun Feb 10, 2013 6:04 am

evaporator covered in ice inside your intake might reduce airflow if it got big enough... Thats what I was thinking...

Also, not thinking of "flooding" a conventional intercooler with refrigerant, more along the lines of fabricating an intercooler casing around a regular evaporator or flowing coolant through a laminova type intercooler which really arent that big...
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Re: REFRIGERATED Intercooler-needs input

Postby Overtriped » Sun Feb 10, 2013 9:46 pm

I just looked the laminova Intercooler up. That look simular to the standard ATW setup that we have.
I was thinking the chiller would go after the heat exchanger to further cool The glycol.
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Re: REFRIGERATED Intercooler-needs input

Postby MWP » Fri Mar 01, 2013 3:07 am

Overtriped wrote:Around- can you use your A/C compressor to cool you charge?
From what I've seen people have the wrong way of going about it and conclude that it is impossible.


It has been done plenty of times, there is ever a commercial unit available.

They all pretty much fail though because...

Overtriped wrote:Can we overcome the power lost with the colder inlet temp and extra weight of the copper pipes, fans, chiller, and Condenser?


No you cant.
If you did, you would have just invented something like a perpetual motion machine.

The only time this will be useful is off the line.
Ie, give it a min or so to cool down the coolant mix before you accelerate.
Youll then get XX mins of cold intake air before the coolant mix warms up again.

No way will this ever be useful for track work or similar.
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Re: REFRIGERATED Intercooler-needs input

Postby l0ch0w » Fri Mar 01, 2013 7:29 am

Im still up in the air about how important super rediculous intercooling really is...

Personally Im of the opinion intercooling only needs to be "adequate enough" for your setup...

Installing an intercooler designed to keep temps down on a 900hp motor is not going to be particularly useful or provide any additional power on say a stock engine. The added weight may actually hurt things.

If you want power, try focussing your efforts on things like fueling and turbo choice. THEN start thinking about the VE (volumetric efficiency) modifications like intercooling, custom manifolds, etc... Because lets face it, those things only provide additional efficiency, the only power adding modifications you can make are first and foremost related to fuel, and then the turbo. Everything else either provides a bit more efficiency, eliminates a bottleneck, or increases strength to handle more power. While the stock Intercooler is certainly a bottleneck when pushing the limits of the stock fueling system, just about any aftermarket intercooler will easily surpass the cooling requirements needed to keep knock at bay.

Intercoolers aren't so much intended to increase power as they are designed to keep your motor from knocking. If it does that, then its adequate. There are SOOO many more and cheaper ways to gain HP than dicking around with the intercooler...
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Re: REFRIGERATED Intercooler-needs input

Postby underscore » Fri Mar 01, 2013 4:55 pm

l0ch0w wrote:Installing an intercooler designed to keep temps down on a 900hp motor is not going to be particularly useful or provide any additional power on say a stock engine. The added weight may actually hurt things.


Not to mention installing a huge intercooler designed for 900HP will induce massive lag.
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Re: REFRIGERATED Intercooler-needs input

Postby Overtriped » Sat Mar 02, 2013 5:47 am

I've got a sufficiant FMIC already, also have the original top ATA IC. Eventually I'll build one of these intercoolers and experiment with it. Got some good ideas from the input though.
If and when I build it ill post the results.
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Re: REFRIGERATED Intercooler-needs input

Postby underscore » Sat Mar 02, 2013 8:11 am

Why bother though? Like it was already said:

MWP wrote:
Overtriped wrote:Can we overcome the power lost with the colder inlet temp and extra weight of the copper pipes, fans, chiller, and Condenser?


No you cant.
If you did, you would have just invented something like a perpetual motion machine.

The only time this will be useful is off the line.
Ie, give it a min or so to cool down the coolant mix before you accelerate.
Youll then get XX mins of cold intake air before the coolant mix warms up again.

No way will this ever be useful for track work or similar.


In a closed loop (ie systems tied to your motor) you can never get more power back than you put in due to losses (friction, heat, etc)
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Re: REFRIGERATED Intercooler-needs input

Postby Overtriped » Sun Mar 03, 2013 3:31 pm

I'll prove everyone wrong or go out in a blaze of fire. Again, I'm not so sure everyone understands a "pump down system" which holds Alot of gas which can cool quiet a bit with a relatively small compressor.
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Re: REFRIGERATED Intercooler-needs input

Postby phattyduck » Mon Mar 04, 2013 5:17 pm

Overtriped wrote:I'll prove everyone wrong or go out in a blaze of fire. Again, I'm not so sure everyone understands a "pump down system" which holds Alot of gas which can cool quiet a bit with a relatively small compressor.
You can't get more power over the long term with a system like this. Its physics. It can't work.

What you can do is move 'power' in time. In other words, run the compressor, cool lots of mass before a drag run (and turn the compressor off for the drag run) to get extra power for a short bit.

Then, all that aside, there is a limit to optimal intake temps. Too cold can limit power too...

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