rebuild kit question

Q&A regarding engines, turbos, and intercoolers and power upgrades

rebuild kit question

Postby brutekiller787 » Mon Apr 08, 2013 2:40 pm

Would a full engine rebuild kit designed for the 2 gen 3sgte work with a 1st gen? I have a 2nd gen head with a 1st gen block and it needs rebuilt bad. Essentially, besides some oilcooler gasket miss matching would this work?

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Re: rebuild kit question

Postby brutekiller787 » Wed Apr 10, 2013 12:55 pm

Has anyone rebuilt their motor even? Or are swaps the thing around here? I really dont want to swap because besides the head i have a numbers matching car. I have access to all the proper tools, machines, equipment, and teachers, if i need them.

I Just don't want to get halfway through tearing my motor apart and realize i needed a different kit because something on the bottom end is different, other than oil cooler.

I Have an st165 block with st185 head
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Re: rebuild kit question

Postby polm » Wed Apr 10, 2013 1:44 pm

Hey,
I'll give you an honest reply: you get what you pay for. I have used a cheap gasket kit on a b16a honda engine and it held up fine for the time I had the car (about 4 months). If cheap is what you are into, then go for it, but cheap and quality rarely come together.

A lot of people have rebuilt their engines and there are a couple of options to do so. You can get an OEM gasket kit from KO racing or from the dealership (http://www.koracing.net/viewproduct.php ... roduct=438) for 275$, but if you are to rebuild an engine, might as well go with an mls head gasket so you can up the boost (the stock graphite one sucks it has been proven many times). I am personally going with the cometic bottom + top end gasket kit, which is essentially a full engine gasket kit but sold in 2 kits. It comes with most of the gasket (not all, though you can source the 2-3 that are missing from the dealership) including valves seals and such and it comes with an mls head gasket which is great really + you can choose the thickness you want for the head gasket. Overall, the cometic kit is cheaper and has a better head gasket. Here are the links from real street performance, though you can buy them from klue too (which is what I'm doing). Top end: http://realstreetperformance.com/store/ ... -1033.html and bottom end: http://realstreetperformance.com/store/ ... -1034.html

For the pistons and rings, I have had good experiences with Nippon racing which are the ones listed in your kit, though I would have the block overbored so you are sure the cylinders are perfectly round. The NPR pistons are available in oversizes so that's not a problem. If you want to go all out, then go forged for the pistons. You will be able to reach higher boost levels though you have to check your piston to wall clearance thoroughly as forged pistons are a lot less forgiving than cast pistons. You have not stated any power goals but if you ever plan on making more power than forged is the way to go. I've been told the stock rods are good up to 400hp, though forged rods are a nice addition to a build. If you plan on replacing the pistons (which I wouldn't if the ones you have are still in good condition and show good compression numbers and you don't plan on making more than 350whp) then make sure your crank is well balanced and that you lube everything correctly when rebuilding. King bearings are known good so those are a good choice, though ACLs also do the job correctly.

For the water pump and timing belt its up to you but I wouldn't trust that kit personally. I'd go with something like this instead: http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/moreinf ... cc=1274194 (part#: GTK0125) and a Toyota pump.

For the oil pump I'd upgrade to the 98+ 5sfe pump as it flows more oil. If more flow isn't a concern than stick with the 3sgte one. Both these pumps can be bought oem (brand is aisin) from rock auto or the dealership.

I think this covers your question. If you try that kit it's at your own risk. At some point I was also considering that kit. But, I personally prefer doing things right the first time, though it might seem more expensive at first, it always pays off in the long run to get better quality parts. Do it right or don't do it... I learned it the hard way.
Cheers and good luck!
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Re: rebuild kit question

Postby UtahSleeper » Wed Apr 10, 2013 5:21 pm

So, the real street gasket kits would have everything needed for a 1st gen? Would the HG be good to use also?

I am about to do a rebuild also. Want to try and do it proper, but still conserve money since I am not going big power.
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Re: rebuild kit question

Postby polm » Wed Apr 10, 2013 7:10 pm

Oh, I missed the part about the 1st gen block. I'm assuming that since the 2nd gen head bolts to the 1st gen block, then the head gasket and the top end parts should all fit. I have no clue though if a 2nd gen bottom end kit would fit a 1st gen block. I know for a fact that the gasket kit is almost complete, it's only missing a couple of gaskets that are not mandatory to a rebuild such as the throttle body gasket.

UtahSleeper wrote:So, the real street gasket kits would have everything needed for a 1st gen? Would the HG be good to use also?

I am about to do a rebuild also. Want to try and do it proper, but still conserve money since I am not going big power.

The head gasket from the cometic kit is actually A LOT better than the oem toyota one. It's a multilayered steel gasket (MLS) and it can handle a lot more abuse than the stock graphite one.
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Re: rebuild kit question

Postby brutekiller787 » Wed Apr 10, 2013 8:21 pm

^^^ thank you. You basically just told me everything i was going to do already, so i appreciate the second opinion.

So would you suggest for a rebuild to get the cometic top end kit and a set of Nippon pistons, plus rock auto water and oil pump that would work with the 98+ 5sfe oil pump and 2nd gen water pump. Do you happen to know what timing belt to use with that combo?
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Re: rebuild kit question

Postby Rpz123isme » Wed Apr 10, 2013 8:38 pm

Get a gen 2 kit. Then get gen 1 front and rear main seals. Or get a gen 1 kit with a gen 2 valve cover gasket. So its up to you. Both run the same size piston, rods, and same size mains. I used a gen 2 kit on my ge motor. Epwi sells a good kit from topline. Its woth the 4-5 hundred dollars.
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Re: rebuild kit question

Postby brutekiller787 » Wed Apr 10, 2013 10:12 pm

What front main seal do i use for the 5sfe pump? Or will one come with an oil pump? Does the 5sfe oil pump even for with the st165 block or is that another gen2+ thing
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Re: rebuild kit question

Postby polm » Thu Apr 11, 2013 12:37 am

So I did a bit of googling and came up with this: http://honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=2415358
Like I mentioned before I haven't had any problems with nippon pistons on the honda I had before and it appears everyone in this thread agrees that they are a great bang for the buck. A guy said his motor had been running strong for 70k miles with these pistons which is great. This being said, if you do plan on replacing the pistons, this kit sounds like a good alternative: http://www.ebay.com/itm/90-95-Toyota-Ce ... 4e&vxp=mtr it comes with king bearings and everything you need to install the pistons. Oh and always hone the cylinder walls before installing new pistons. I'm not sure if a gen 2 timing belt will work on a gen 1 block, I'll let someone who experienced it answer this question.
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Re: rebuild kit question

Postby Rpz123isme » Thu Apr 11, 2013 1:11 am

the top line kit comes with the correct oil pump seal and a 5sfe pump.
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Re: rebuild kit question

Postby brutekiller787 » Thu Apr 11, 2013 4:11 am

Could you post a link to the top line kit you speak of.

I Was planning on going with 87 mm if i can swing it. The kit i posted can get up to .040" over.

Anyone know if the 5sfe oil pump will work with a gen1 block?
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Re: rebuild kit question

Postby Rpz123isme » Tue Apr 16, 2013 5:05 pm

A link to ewpi will do you no good unless you have a contract with them. Try ebay.
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Re: rebuild kit question

Postby Rpz123isme » Tue Apr 16, 2013 5:08 pm

http://item.mobileweb.ebay.com/viewitem ... 6032938206
Ends in a few minutes. But contact the seller and im sure he will have a kit for your needs.
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Re: rebuild kit question

Postby polm » Tue Apr 16, 2013 5:38 pm

I don't want to sound like a dick but a quick google search brought this up:
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/bolt-te ... d-kit.html
http://forums.nicoclub.com/topline-pist ... 66895.html
Both thread have testimonies of people saying that the kit isn't worth the money or that quality is bad, etc. I'm sure some people have had good experiences with it but I personally won't take the risk.
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Re: rebuild kit question

Postby Rpz123isme » Tue Apr 16, 2013 6:47 pm

I have used that kit in several motors, one of which is my own, the first motor i put that kit in several years and thousands of miles of hard abuse later its still running great. I boost 18 psi on mine with zero mechanical problems. And a member on here has a motor i built with that kit, he aswell will tell you its good quality. But hey its your money and car, do what you please. (its not like im a machinist useing these kits daily in all types and brands of motors, with zero failures in the past 3 years).
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