600-800 HP 3SGTE discussion

Q&A regarding engines, turbos, and intercoolers and power upgrades

600-800 HP 3SGTE discussion

Postby knowitalls » Thu Feb 06, 2014 2:35 am

So one of my best friends has this 800+ hp Supra project that he is slowly working on. Stock internals, huge single turbonetics turbo, etc etc etc. I have my mostly stock st165. I do not want to lose to this supra. So here is whats going through my head. I want to make 800whp on race gas, and as low as 600whp on pump gas.

So far, with what I have read here on the forums, my list of upgraded parts so far are:

Gen 2 head swap for better cam selection, 3sge intake manifold, 272 cams (brand?), front mount intercooler, 3'' exhaust turbo back, t3/t4 cast manifold, turbo (size?), injectors, pistons, rods, etc etc etc...

1. What size turbo do I need to produce these numbers? Are we talking a gt30 or more along the lines of a t66? I need specifics like "If you run a GT30, you will need the exhaust A/R to be >1.05 and the compressor wheel exducer to be 86.55 mm and the inducer to be 50.00 mm 60 trim."

2. Since I have to upgrade the rods and pistons anyway, should I use a 5s block and crank? Would that bottom end spin as many rpms as the 3s can?

3. 1200cc injectors sound about right?

4. Can I get away with a piggy back or do I need to go stand alone( megasquirt is cost efffective)
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Re: 600-800 HP 3SGTE discussion

Postby weapon5 » Thu Feb 06, 2014 2:48 am

twin turbo twin charge 2gr swap lol :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_4_f_e8jHY

800hp with piston, rods, and a little head work ;) although all the supporting mod cost much more.
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Re: 600-800 HP 3SGTE discussion

Postby Grimnor » Thu Feb 06, 2014 3:26 am

The 5s block will not fit the ST165 without significant modification. It's really not worth it. I have been doing boatloads of research on the 3sgte and what it take to make these power levels pull after pull.
Lots of people seem recommend using the first gen block for a stroker build.
5s crank - will need machining to use 3s rods - you will also use the st165 flywheel with this crank
pauter rods
cp stroker pistons
2nd gen head
block girdle
high flow oil pump
This is just a very short list.
You will certainly want to go to a serious tuner and use a stand alone ECU
If you want to hunt an 800HP supra and not blow engine after engine you are looking at a massive project. Almost nothing will be stock. I mean this literally.
To be 100% honest, the easiest way would be to turn to someone like ATS and get ready to drop something around at least 6,000 bucks.

I am not saying its impossible, it would be cool as hell. Look at what the MR2 guys do to make those power levels and you will get a better idea of what needs to be done.

**EDIT**
I have been looking around and measuring parts. If I was seriously looking to make these levels of power reliably I would end up using a dual charger system.
I have measured the supercharger, intake and water to air intercooler from the early cobalt SS. I am reasonably sure they could be modified to fit.
Clock the turbo to run to a front mount intercooler, output to the supercharger that pushes through its WtA intercooler
It would be an epic way to have a monster power band. You could run a huge turbo without worrying about unusable lag.
If I were going to hunt supras, this would be my route.
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Re: 600-800 HP 3SGTE discussion

Postby quieter » Thu Feb 06, 2014 3:44 am

wasn't there somewhere on the website info on 300hp to 800hp+ builds with all the prices?
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Re: 600-800 HP 3SGTE discussion

Postby UtahSleeper » Thu Feb 06, 2014 3:52 am

You will need a stand alone.

Also, I doubt the 3sge manifold will get you to the numbers you want.

Also, look at tjdouble07's build, somewhere here. Last I heard he was over 900. There are a few other builds, I just know his cause I have seen it.
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Re: 600-800 HP 3SGTE discussion

Postby underscore » Thu Feb 06, 2014 5:27 am

FYI to get a high-flow oil pump get a 98+ 5SFE pump.

Grimnor wrote:The 5s block will not fit the ST165 without significant modification.


Based on what info/reasoning?
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Re: 600-800 HP 3SGTE discussion

Postby GT4_DRED » Thu Feb 06, 2014 12:34 pm

Those are extremely ambitious goals for sure, but also keep in mind that it will take at least twice as long and cost at least 3 times as much $$$ to get 800awhp from your alltrac vs. his Supra. I highly recommend reading the threads created by Alltrac101, tjdouble07, BADNEW5, and sleeper to truly get a realistic perspective of the costs, development, time, and effort it takes to get those numbers "reliably" from an Alltrac.

knowitalls wrote:I want to make 800whp on race gas, and as low as 600whp on pump gas.

600whp on pump gas just isn't realistic or even possible/practical (flame suit on), without the aid of meth/water injection or unless you're referring to the "other" pump gas (E85).


knowitalls wrote:So far, with what I have read here on the forums, my list of upgraded parts so far are:
Gen 2 head swap for better cam selection, 3sge intake manifold, 272 cams (brand?), front mount intercooler, 3'' exhaust turbo back, t3/t4 cast manifold, turbo (size?), injectors, pistons, rods, etc etc etc...

As mentioned earlier, the stock intake manifold wont cut it. At a minimum, you'll need a re-plenum just to meet the lower end (600whp) of your goals.


knowitalls wrote:1. What size turbo do I need to produce these numbers? Are we talking a gt30 or more along the lines of a t66? I need specifics like "If you run a GT30, you will need the exhaust A/R to be >1.05 and the compressor wheel exducer to be 86.55 mm and the inducer to be 50.00 mm 60 trim."

On the low end a T3/T4 6266 (.82 a/r)should do and on the high end a T3/T4 6766 (.82 a/r) should do. Note, that you'll be running a lot of boost (easily 30+ psi and maybe even touching into the 40s).


knowitalls wrote:2. Since I have to upgrade the rods and pistons anyway, should I use a 5s block and crank? Would that bottom end spin as many rpms as the 3s can?

newer 5s block (I would consider half filling it), 3s crank (oversquare setup), upgraded pistons "and pins", rods etc..


knowitalls wrote:3. 1200cc injectors sound about right?

Maybe for race fuel. You'll need a lot more (~2000cc) for E85

knowitalls wrote:4. Can I get away with a piggy back or do I need to go stand alone( megasquirt is cost efffective)

You'll need a full standalone.. There's nothing "cost effective" about trying to get 800whp out of a 4 cylinder. It's just costs :D

Just with what's mentioned above and the supporting mods you're above $10k (not including machine and fabrication) and we haven't mentioned stopping, handling, and the drive-train as yet. If you have the time and resources, you can do it, but even then, things will break at those power levels, which can be frustrating in itself.

I'm not trying to discourage you from your goal, just trying to help keep it in perspective. HTHs
Last edited by GT4_DRED on Thu Feb 06, 2014 7:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: 600-800 HP 3SGTE discussion

Postby ALLensTRAC » Thu Feb 06, 2014 6:16 pm

Remove 3s. Purchase 2j swap. Mount in 165. Install Sc300/400 rear suspension and diff. Install outer stub of axles in front bearings.
Make 2j have 900hp and beat the crap out of his supra.
Seriously though there is a reason there are only 10 or so Tracs in the world creating 600whp+. As others have said look at Alltrac101, BADNEWS, or Tjdouble07. Their builds are the best when it comes to big power and are laden with custom one off parts or high dollar items that are required at that level. And these guys have been at it for years!!!!
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Re: 600-800 HP 3SGTE discussion

Postby yota 3.0 » Thu Feb 06, 2014 7:37 pm

I have a 97 supra with 863rwhp and a 91 Alltrac with 600awhp and trust me when I say the amount of money you will spend trying to go Supra hunting is going to be a lot! you are better off just buying a supra.

I don't know about anyone else, but I have never been able to bang gears in my alltrac and not feel like im going to break everything. my supra on the other hand will take a beating all day!


just my opinion from owning both cars. Ditch the 3s awd setup and 1/2jz rwd convert it with a v160 or th400 trans, depends if u want 6spd or auto

let me know if you have any questions,
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Re: 600-800 HP 3SGTE discussion

Postby CSAlltrac » Thu Feb 06, 2014 10:38 pm

GT4_Dred hit it on the head as well as the other guys that have commented. You have lotso reading ahead of ya.
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Re: 600-800 HP 3SGTE discussion

Postby lumbercis » Thu Feb 06, 2014 11:10 pm

Yeah, GT4_Dred has some good advice. It's sounds like you're not that familiar with 3sgte tuning so if that's the case I'd just call someone like ATS, tell them what your goals are, and let them make the decisions. But like others have mentioned, you're going to have to be prepared to drop serious cash to make this happen. I'm guessing closer to 15k once you include supporting drivetrain mods.

If you don't mind driving around in a tin can your best bet is to try get your ST165 as light as possible. Then you don't need to make as much power to equal the Supra's power to weight ratio. Then again, adding lightness can cost money too. Speed ain't cheap.

Good luck
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Re: 600-800 HP 3SGTE discussion

Postby underscore » Fri Feb 07, 2014 1:01 am

On top of all that do you even know what an 800HP car is like? What do you want to use it for other than beating your buddy once?
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Re: 600-800 HP 3SGTE discussion

Postby ALLensTRAC » Fri Feb 07, 2014 2:14 am

underscore wrote:On top of all that do you even know what an 800HP car is like? What do you want to use it for other than beating your buddy once?

So true!!! Most people will kill themselves in an 800hp anything!!!

I'm starting to think this is a troll post though judging by the fact the OP has not chimed in and his username lol
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Re: 600-800 HP 3SGTE discussion

Postby CSAlltrac » Fri Feb 07, 2014 2:17 am

The ST165 tops out at 145, you're gonna need NOS.
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Re: 600-800 HP 3SGTE discussion

Postby UtahSleeper » Fri Feb 07, 2014 2:23 am

yota 3.0 wrote:I have a 97 supra with 863rwhp and a 91 Alltrac with 600awhp and trust me when I say the amount of money you will spend trying to go Supra hunting is going to be a lot! you are better off just buying a supra.

I don't know about anyone else, but I have never been able to bang gears in my alltrac and not feel like im going to break everything. my supra on the other hand will take a beating all day!


just my opinion from owning both cars. Ditch the 3s awd setup and 1/2jz rwd convert it with a v160 or th400 trans, depends if u want 6spd or auto

let me know if you have any questions,
James


Please dont covert an alltrac lol. They are getting rarer with each accident and rice turn to scrap lol.

But the proper question, as just asked, is what are the bigger plans for this car? Is it your DD?
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