Which gen 3S is best for racing??

Q&A regarding engines, turbos, and intercoolers and power upgrades

Which gen 3S is best for racing??

Postby eric thompson » Tue Dec 30, 2014 12:27 pm

Since my build is finally under way I'm torn between which gen 3S to run once my 1st gen bites the bullet... lower cost for used motors and parts availability would make the 2nd gen more cost effective. The 3rd gen is obviously the best of the 1st 3 generations but the 4th gen with coil on plug and just being more refined(from what i've read) is peeking my interest... i have to run a oem turbo and an inlet restrictor so big power isnt my goal... but i will need cams to setup and tune the motor like a rally car to increase and broaden the torque curve since i'll be running out of steam probably below 6500 rpm...

also as most of us know of the oil pressure issues and valvecover/pcv problems under high g-load corners... i just want the most information regarding remedies for known problems to keep my motor reliable. Swapping a motor between races or overnight for Sundays races is a task i'd like to avoid with our cars... having pulled a number of alltrac motors out its quite the knuckle breaker compared to swapping a miata motor and also ridiculously expensive to have two identically built 3s motors....

any thoughts, feedback and remedies for the known problems would be greatly appreciated...

Thanks!
Members don't see the above ad. Register now - it's free!
ST165-PARTS-RED
ST165-SCCA STU ROADRACING-(RALLISPEC'S ST165)
NEED ONE MORE FOR STREET:)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-RCuV_Hmqk (ITS miata 6spd,4.78 rear, shitloads of fun!! multiple wins and track records in 2014)
eric thompson
Club Member
 
Posts: 503
Images: 6
Joined: Wed Sep 15, 2004 9:06 pm
Location: siny - 10304 / nj 07747

Re: Which gen 3S is best for racing??

Postby MWP » Tue Dec 30, 2014 4:33 pm

Budget?
What type of racing? Drag/Circuit/Rally?

If your seriously racing (mid-high budget) and have to stick with a 3/5S, then a redtop or blacktop BEAMS based engine is the way to go.
The BEAMS engines breath far better than even the best ported gen3/4 engine will do.
My collection of GT4 documentation: http://gt4.mwp.id.au
Daily: Celica GT4 ST185 (~170kw/atw)
Project: Toyota RA28 '77 Celica (1UZ-FE powered)
Chairman of the SA Classic Celica Club.
MWP
Established Member
 
Posts: 1591
Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2009 11:02 am
Location: Adelaide, South Australia

Re: Which gen 3S is best for racing??

Postby eric thompson » Tue Dec 30, 2014 7:33 pm

SCCA Road racing. I am limited on the engine build as i cant mix and match heads and blocks and it must remain a 2.0 liter.... So i'm pretty much limited to using a 3s long block... diff gens are allowed though...
ST165-PARTS-RED
ST165-SCCA STU ROADRACING-(RALLISPEC'S ST165)
NEED ONE MORE FOR STREET:)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-RCuV_Hmqk (ITS miata 6spd,4.78 rear, shitloads of fun!! multiple wins and track records in 2014)
eric thompson
Club Member
 
Posts: 503
Images: 6
Joined: Wed Sep 15, 2004 9:06 pm
Location: siny - 10304 / nj 07747

Re: Which gen 3S is best for racing??

Postby CMS-GT4 » Tue Dec 30, 2014 10:09 pm

My understanding the 3rd gen has a better PVC system that helps with oiling issues on hard turns and the pan is better designed for the same reason. I imagine you would use an aftermarket pan either way. There is a thread on here relating to the PVC system.
Coldiron
92 st185 (205 swap) | 03 350Z Track (sold) | 13 Pilot | 17 Mazda3
www.noritoy.com | noritoy.deviantart.com | http://www.alltrac.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=44&t=19891
User avatar
CMS-GT4
GTSilver Member
 
Posts: 10337
Images: 7
Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2004 9:12 pm
Location: St Louis Area (IL)

1992 Toyota Celica

Re: Which gen 3S is best for racing??

Postby klue » Wed Dec 31, 2014 2:16 am

for racing I would go with the gen 3. Gen 4 might be more difficult to get parts for in a pinch
facebook.com/xiiimotorsports
#xiiimotorsports ON instagram
User avatar
klue
GTFour God
 
Posts: 3893
Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2004 9:47 pm
Location: Greater Toronto Area

Re: Which gen 3S is best for racing??

Postby MWP » Wed Dec 31, 2014 4:35 am

Go gen4 3SGTE from a ST215 or ST246.
They have great useable power, response & reliability out of the box.

Yeah, some parts wont be as common as a gen3, but that will change in the future as gen3's age, and gen4's become more common.
Plus you wont need as many parts for a gen4 as they are more reliable.
My collection of GT4 documentation: http://gt4.mwp.id.au
Daily: Celica GT4 ST185 (~170kw/atw)
Project: Toyota RA28 '77 Celica (1UZ-FE powered)
Chairman of the SA Classic Celica Club.
MWP
Established Member
 
Posts: 1591
Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2009 11:02 am
Location: Adelaide, South Australia

Re: Which gen 3S is best for racing??

Postby underscore » Wed Dec 31, 2014 5:06 am

Gen 4 is more prevalent in your neck of the woods MWP, it won't be as common over here. Gen 2 and 3 will be easier to source parts and support for over here thanks to the 205's and SW20's.
★ 1991 GTFour RC ~ "Rebel Scum" ★
It's for sale! http://www.alltrac.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=52181
Build thread http://www.alltrac.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=44&t=44216
underscore
GTFour God
 
Posts: 3792
Images: 0
Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2007 11:29 pm
Location: Kelowna, BC

Re: Which gen 3S is best for racing??

Postby aus jd 2703 » Wed Dec 31, 2014 9:22 am

Are you allowed turbo a N/A motor? If yes beams redtop if on a budget. Black top if more funds as ull need to drill and tap block. Change oil pans. And have a ecu capable of dual vvti.
If you must start with a turbo motor I would personally forge a gen 4 engine.
The cas and cop are both nice. The side feed suits a FMIC and the head is superior to a gen 3 and I believe kelford now do cams for gen 4's.
aus jd 2703
Established Member
 
Posts: 1089
Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 12:02 am

Re: Which gen 3S is best for racing??

Postby eric thompson » Wed Dec 31, 2014 12:42 pm

aus jd 2703 wrote:Are you allowed turbo a N/A motor? If yes beams redtop if on a budget. Black top if more funds as ull need to drill and tap block. Change oil pans. And have a ecu capable of dual vvti.
If you must start with a turbo motor I would personally forge a gen 4 engine.
The cas and cop are both nice. The side feed suits a FMIC and the head is superior to a gen 3 and I believe kelford now do cams for gen 4's.


I'm leaning towards the gen 4 for those reasons but I did want to run the Moroso oil pan since a dry sump is just out of the budget and I dont think it will fit... are there any baffled sumps for a gen4?

I did however get a concession from the rule board to run the 3sge side feed on my first gen, I requested it for obvious reasons :)
ST165-PARTS-RED
ST165-SCCA STU ROADRACING-(RALLISPEC'S ST165)
NEED ONE MORE FOR STREET:)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-RCuV_Hmqk (ITS miata 6spd,4.78 rear, shitloads of fun!! multiple wins and track records in 2014)
eric thompson
Club Member
 
Posts: 503
Images: 6
Joined: Wed Sep 15, 2004 9:06 pm
Location: siny - 10304 / nj 07747

Re: Which gen 3S is best for racing??

Postby Mafix » Wed Dec 31, 2014 3:41 pm

moroso pan fixes many issues. i'd say stay gen 1. they are simple engines and you can run an entire gen 1 ge top end should it take a shit on ya. I made nearly 400whp/400tq on a gen 1 with stock cams, 2.0l, and pump gas. just need a small pcv change. easy to do.
Mafix
Gold Member
 
Posts: 5877
Joined: Tue Aug 10, 2004 10:56 pm

Re: Which gen 3S is best for racing??

Postby klue » Wed Dec 31, 2014 4:54 pm

the gen 3/4 dont have the high G oiling issues that the gen 1/2 have. the pan is a proper sumped pan
facebook.com/xiiimotorsports
#xiiimotorsports ON instagram
User avatar
klue
GTFour God
 
Posts: 3893
Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2004 9:47 pm
Location: Greater Toronto Area

Re: Which gen 3S is best for racing??

Postby MWP » Sat Jan 03, 2015 10:18 am

underscore wrote:Gen 4 is more prevalent in your neck of the woods MWP, it won't be as common over here. Gen 2 and 3 will be easier to source parts and support for over here thanks to the 205's and SW20's.


Maybe, but not that much more (all gen4's in Aus are personal imports too).
Amayama is the place to go for genuine gen4 (and gen1/2/3 for that matter) parts that can't be had locally.

klue wrote:the gen 3/4 dont have the high G oiling issues that the gen 1/2 have. the pan is a proper sumped pan


^ this.

If you want to be extra sure, have the steel pan section extended towards the the front or back of the car (not to the sides).
My collection of GT4 documentation: http://gt4.mwp.id.au
Daily: Celica GT4 ST185 (~170kw/atw)
Project: Toyota RA28 '77 Celica (1UZ-FE powered)
Chairman of the SA Classic Celica Club.
MWP
Established Member
 
Posts: 1591
Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2009 11:02 am
Location: Adelaide, South Australia

Re: Which gen 3S is best for racing??

Postby UtahSleeper » Sun Jan 04, 2015 1:16 am

I would say gen 4 also. The gen 3 and 4 were never sold here, so part availability is probably in the same ball park. There is a company in your area that does gen 4 swaps on MR2's and seem to sell alot of the routine maintenance stuff(gaskets, etc). I went with gen 4 cause of coil on plug and more power stock then the other gens. The main weakness, from what I understand, is the rods. That shouldnt be an issue for you since your not going big power, plus its already side feed to start.

http://www.primemr2.com/store/c4/GEN4_Replacement_%26_Tune-Up_Parts.html
80 Corolla Hatchback - Power (In Progress) http://www.3tcgarage.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=3208
88 Alltrac - Snow (Waiting for the garage) http://www.alltrac.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=44&t=43482

Cardomain - http://www.cardomain.com/id/chris52580
User avatar
UtahSleeper
Established Member
 
Posts: 1916
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2007 6:00 pm
Location: Magna, UT

Re: Which gen 3S is best for racing??

Postby MWP » Sun Jan 04, 2015 9:52 am

UtahSleeper wrote:There is a company in your area that does gen 4 swaps on MR2's and seem to sell alot of the routine maintenance stuff(gaskets, etc).
http://www.primemr2.com/store/c4/GEN4_Replacement_%26_Tune-Up_Parts.html


Oh... nice.
We can't get those kinds of items that easily in Aus.
My collection of GT4 documentation: http://gt4.mwp.id.au
Daily: Celica GT4 ST185 (~170kw/atw)
Project: Toyota RA28 '77 Celica (1UZ-FE powered)
Chairman of the SA Classic Celica Club.
MWP
Established Member
 
Posts: 1591
Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2009 11:02 am
Location: Adelaide, South Australia


Return to Performance and Power

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests

cron