1988 build big power questions

Q&A regarding engines, turbos, and intercoolers and power upgrades

1988 build big power questions

Postby outinnowhere3193 » Thu Mar 24, 2016 10:44 pm

It's been a long while since I did research on the build and I know there's several options. What I'm wondering is what's the best in your guys option.

I picked this car up with a JDM motor that needed to be installed. After installing it I have a cylinder with froze up rings. If I remember right it's a st165 engine. My question is if I want to build this thing for 500+ hp. Is keeping my engine and building it the best route or is if I remember right picking up a newer 5sfe (is that right) block and rotating assembly and just install my head onto that black the better route? I know a junk yard owner so I could a 5sfe for free.

This car is being completely stripped and rust panels installed and getting a fresh paint job. So while it's happening I'm going to build a solid reliable engine so looking for feedback. Ecm wise I'm using a stand alone.

Once again I know theres lots of details on what I'm wanting to do I'm looking more for options on what's the best route between reliable, cost, and benefits such as is there a weight difference?
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Re: 1988 build big power questions

Postby ChrisD » Sun Mar 27, 2016 12:39 pm

Yeah the '98+ Camry 5SFE is generally the strongest block, and what is really recommended at that power level. Keep the 5S crank and you'll be at 2.2L which will help out the midrange quite a bit, especially helpful when running a big turbo that is required at that level. I'm building my 5S up right now.
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Re: 1988 build big power questions

Postby MrMcQuacker » Sun Mar 27, 2016 2:53 pm

Just curious, We can use the 5sfe block and use any of the 3sgte heads? using 5sfe pistons and rods with the crank. Can we use a 3rd gen oil pan or does it have to stay 5sfe?
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Re: 1988 build big power questions

Postby ChrisD » Sun Mar 27, 2016 3:45 pm

You can use any of the heads yes. Have to check the head gasket carefully though. Yes can use 5SFE pistons, rods sure but there are more options if you use 3S rods which requires you to have the crank journals ground down. Oil pans are generally compatible, however there are some minor differences. 3rd gen has two larger bolts so you'd have to drill those holes out on a gen 2 pan for example. I'm running a gen 2 moroso pan, have mated it to a gen 3 and now putting it on my 5S. Compatible just with some minor tweaks.
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Re: 1988 build big power questions

Postby outinnowhere3193 » Fri Apr 08, 2016 12:55 am

ChrisD wrote:You can use any of the heads yes. Have to check the head gasket carefully though. Yes can use 5SFE pistons, rods sure but there are more options if you use 3S rods which requires you to have the crank journals ground down. Oil pans are generally compatible, however there are some minor differences. 3rd gen has two larger bolts so you'd have to drill those holes out on a gen 2 pan for example. I'm running a gen 2 moroso pan, have mated it to a gen 3 and now putting it on my 5S. Compatible just with some minor tweaks.


Hey chris I know the later year 3s made more power than my 88 engine. Partly due to the fact more boost and probably better intake or cams. But what about head design? Would I yield any better results from a first gen to a 3rd gen head? What about if your get head work done? Then is it a wash? Anyone know this answer?
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Re: 1988 build big power questions

Postby ___Scott___ » Fri Apr 08, 2016 3:15 am

outinnowhere3193 wrote:But what about head design?


The 3rd gen head is a much better design than either previous gen. The catch is that the 1st & 2nd gen intake and exhaust manifolds won't bolt to a 3rd gen head so you would have to source those too. But, if you can get your hands on a 3rd gen head, you can probably get the manifolds too.
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Re: 1988 build big power questions

Postby Pipedreams » Fri Apr 08, 2016 9:26 am

To use a gen3 oilpan you need the pump too.
For 500hp the 5s rods will not last, so definitely forged rods and pistons. There are rods available for 5s crank so no need to grind the crank to fit 3s rods.
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Re: 1988 build big power questions

Postby outinnowhere3193 » Sun Apr 10, 2016 12:53 am

currently have the je pistons and eagle rods on order. The crank I just need to go pick up and then I noticed Chris had a gen 3 Head so I'm waiting on his reply.

While I wait can anyone verify if I need to worry about my gen on dizzy working with the gen 3 head and what about the gen 3 intake. Is the lean issue fixed on the gen 3 design or switching to the aftermarket, custom, or side mount a must to get away from a lean issue?

If a side mount it's hard to find a straight answer in the forums what fits the gen 3 head? 3sge Gen 2?

while you guys are here and being so helpfully. Would you leave the flywheel alone and go lighter flywheel or lighten the crank with a lighter flywheel? I'm guessing don't touch the crank.
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Re: 1988 build big power questions

Postby ChrisD » Tue Apr 12, 2016 12:06 pm

Oh sorry I missed this. I've run all 3 engines but not really mixed and matched. I did have my Gen 1 head port and polished previously which left me with a laggy feeling engine. I think there is quite the art to p&p work, in terms of maximizing flow while keeping air velocity high as well. Since then I've been running on a Gen 2 head on my 165 and the stock motor on my 205. The 205 is certainly more refined but there are other things as well, ex. Map sensor based, the ct20b is a better turbo, etc. And now my 165 is getting a 5S block with Gen 2 head and a big big turbo, so it doesn't really reflect what most people have.

I like lightweight flywheels. Not sure about cranks.. . I'd start to worry about idle quality with that personally, but some have done it and seem to like it.

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Re: 1988 build big power questions

Postby outinnowhere3193 » Tue Apr 12, 2016 12:25 pm

The lobe/horrible idle is a big head turner but you can do that with overlap on the cams.

From racing experience in a sprint car your brakes will begin to glow so you want a engine that takes off and drops as fast as possible. Use less brakes that way, less fuel, and more hp.

So to me if you want the engine to slow you down excessively light weight everything.

I don't want anything radical just didn't know how excessively bulky the crank was in the 5s.
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Re: 1988 build big power questions

Postby MWP » Tue Apr 12, 2016 4:10 pm

outinnowhere3193 wrote:currently have the je pistons and eagle rods on order. The crank I just need to go pick up and then I noticed Chris had a gen 3 Head so I'm waiting on his reply.


ChrisD wasnt quite correct above... the gen4 head is better than the gen3.
The gen4 combustion chambers have a better shape, and the ports are better finished/machined. Oh, and of course the gen4 has COP.

You do have to be careful when using the gen4 head with forged pistons specced for a gen2/3 though.
The smaller combustion chambers increase CR by a small amount (somewhere around 1/2 to 1 point).

While I wait can anyone verify if I need to worry about my gen on dizzy working with the gen 3 head and what about the gen 3 intake. Is the lean issue fixed on the gen 3 design or switching to the aftermarket, custom, or side mount a must to get away from a lean issue?
If a side mount it's hard to find a straight answer in the forums what fits the gen 3 head? 3sge Gen 2?


Not sure if the lean issue is fixed with the gen3 inlet manifold. Im guessing it is, but youll need to confirm that.
The 3sge gen2 side intake does not fit the gen3. The only side intake manifold that does is from the gen4 (ST215).

while you guys are here and being so helpfully. Would you leave the flywheel alone and go lighter flywheel or lighten the crank with a lighter flywheel? I'm guessing don't touch the crank.


If using the 5S crank, you should knock off the balance shaft ring gear.
Other than that, leave it alone. Its not worth messing with it.
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Re: 1988 build big power questions

Postby ChrisD » Wed Apr 13, 2016 6:09 pm

MWP wrote:
outinnowhere3193 wrote:currently have the je pistons and eagle rods on order. The crank I just need to go pick up and then I noticed Chris had a gen 3 Head so I'm waiting on his reply.


ChrisD wasnt quite correct above... the gen4 head is better than the gen3.
The gen4 combustion chambers have a better shape, and the ports are better finished/machined. Oh, and of course the gen4 has COP.
[/quote]

I didn't mention gen 4 head? I can't really comment on which head is the best, without flow testing of some sort. But I would imagine that the design improved with each gen.
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