Front a-arm & suspension weight discussion

Suspension and other discussion

Postby CMS-GT4 » Wed Nov 26, 2008 3:49 pm

alex237 wrote:just a thought- i know a person in the uk thats put a 205 subframe on his 185,he swapped the lot.bear in mind halfshaft lengths if you just swap the arms,ill try to find out more info for you :)


Got any pics and details? I was wanting to swap over the 205 subframe and superstrut bits but everyone told me it was impossible.

Terracar wrote:Also to CMS what about lightening the axles? Not sure if any options for this exist for our cars - have seen them for the honduh crowd though.


That is an option but I imagine its an expensive option.
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Postby gtfour77 » Wed Nov 26, 2008 4:37 pm

I am still researching this whole idea but yes, that would be basically it. pherical bearings would remove any slop in the suspension which is ideal for racing purposes. All of the big guns at nationals run them and there is a huge reason for doing so... Talking to Mark Daddio, Vic Sias for 5 minutes will cause you to spend about $5000 in one weekend.. and that's the chea stuff...heh
Anyway, here is an example of what I mean. It's called a caster block as it prevents the a-arm to go backwards and change caster under braking/cornering... It just needs to be something solid to stop the motion.
http://www.blaszakprecision.com/Spheric ... _block.jpg

Here is another design:
http://www.powerhaus.com/usedcars/1987_ ... _strut.jpg

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl= ... %26hl%3Den

Thsi is very similar to our suspension so we might take some ideas from this setup...



Terracar wrote:I am a little hazy on the spherical bearing use in the A arms idea...

If I am understanding correctly (please forgive me - very little sleep in last few days due to thanksgiving prep) you would replace the bushing in the A arm with spherical bearings - you mention aluminum blocks also (I think) - might question is would the spherical bearing be the same size as the bushing and pressed into teh A arm or would it be two smaller spherical bearings pressed into the A arm?

The use of the bearings make sense to me to take out the slop from the bushings - but would be concerned over the stresses on the bearing caused by in/out & side to side forces (probably thinking about this reverse of what you are at this time lol)

Also to CMS what about lightening the axles? Not sure if any options for this exist for our cars - have seen them for the honduh crowd though.

Also somewhat OT - but also what about remaking engine cross members from lighter materials - not alot of savings but potentially some there.



-Terracar
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Postby gtfour77 » Wed Nov 26, 2008 4:41 pm

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Postby CMS-GT4 » Wed Nov 26, 2008 5:22 pm

So you are trying ot make something this winter? :D
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Postby gtfour77 » Wed Nov 26, 2008 5:28 pm

Possibly, I am selling my daily driver within the next couple of weeks (need to do some maintenance on it) and then I will take the front and rear suspension apart and start thinking about some improvements.

Edit: I'll keep you posted, this will be actually quite simple project once started. Quick jig and good bar stock will go a long way... :D Plus adjustable lower ball joint will help out with caster and balance.
This is what I am thinking...
http://www.pdm-racing.com/products/imag/bvrlca.jpg

With one of the arms being adjustable, unless I can come up with a design that will let me reliably change the ball joint position, kind of like adjustable camber plates...

Also, and this is 100%, adjustable radius rods with spherical bearings will be put in the rear to replace the stock rubber bushings (in the subframe only) and to make alignemnt easy.
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Postby Terracar » Wed Nov 26, 2008 6:38 pm

When you say caster blocks to prevent a arm going backwards - is my interpretation correct in the image below?

Image

TIA

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Postby gtfour77 » Wed Nov 26, 2008 6:56 pm

Nope, it's the movement to the rear of the car... the movement you shoved in the illustration is the easier one to control and simple spherical bearical can be used. The other motion creates lot more stress on the bearing since it's a pressure that goes "through" the bearing opening rather than on the race. If you need more explanation I can try but this is the best I can do for now... :wink:

This can also be solved by positioning the rear bearing horizontally rather than vertically...
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Postby Terracar » Wed Nov 26, 2008 7:48 pm

Ahhh - ok makes sense now. That was my concerns for using the spherical bearings - figured that movement would be hard on the bearings (the forces exterted on them).

Ok glad I am on the same page


Thank you for the patience :)

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Postby CMS-GT4 » Tue Dec 30, 2008 8:56 pm

phattyduck wrote:The increase in rear track on the ST205 compared to the ST185/ST165/SV25 comes exclusively from the longer arms. You will need to match your axles to do this swap.

You will gain about 3* of camber until you get some alignment bolts in there. The shop had to put 2 bolts on one side and one on the other to get back to 1* total camber (stock for my Camry Alltrac). I'm not sure what is different on the ST205 struts/chassis to account for this (different top mounting point or different lower mounting points).

I kept my stock hubs for the moment, but the ST205 hubs are essentially the same as far as I can tell. ST205 rear brakes bolt on to earlier hubs, aside from the well known 55mm vs. 54.1mm hub difference.

Also note that the part numbers for the rear subframes are the same across the years (ST205/ST185/ST165/SV25). The mount bushings and other minor parts may have different part numbers (the ST205 and SV25 subframe mount bushings are different but interchangable, for example).

Hope that clears up a few things.

-Charlie


So I measured the 185 axles and the 205 axles today. Unless them being in the car changes the length somehow the rear 185 axles are shorter.

I measured both axles at the ends of the boot. The 185 axles came around 17.5" (444.5mm) and the 205 rear axle came to about 18.75" (476.25mm).

BTW: Both axles in the pic are 205's, I was just trying to show the reference points of where I measured. To the end of each boot.
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Postby RedCelicaTRD » Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:38 pm

The st205 rear control arms are longer also. If you install the arms and the axles you get about 22mm of extra width per side.
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Postby CMS-GT4 » Wed Dec 31, 2008 4:16 pm

Sirius wrote:I've just measured the distance between the rear (ST205) strut tops. As best I can get its 1113mm. Give or take a little.

Its a bit hard to get it accurately as the strut brace is in the way and the tops are recessed behind the plastic inner covers.


Thanks. The 185 strut tops are around 1105mm apart. So if our measurements are correct there is only a few mm difference on each side if at all. I would almost bet that both of our measurements are slightly off of accuracy and there is a good chance the mounting locations are pretty much the same. So I think it is safe to say that the 205 rear suspension can be used on a 185 and will increase the rear track.
Once I get other things done to the car, I will start on swapping these parts over.
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Postby phattyduck » Wed Dec 31, 2008 7:52 pm

CMS-GT4 wrote:So I think it is safe to say that the 205 rear suspension can be used on a 185 and will increase the rear track.
Once I get other things done to the car, I will start on swapping these parts over.
Its not only safe to say, its true. I already have a full ST205 rear end on my Camry Alltrac (all same P/N's for the rear end as the ST165/ST185). It widened the rear track by 2' - 2.2". You need all the arms and axles. You will also need 1 or 2 camber bolts on each side since adding that much to the track adds about 3* of camber.

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Postby RedCelicaTRD » Wed Dec 31, 2008 10:10 pm

CMS-GT4 wrote: So I think it is safe to say that the 205 rear suspension can be used on a 185 and will increase the rear track.
Once I get other things done to the car, I will start on swapping these parts over.


The strut tops are the same distance apart. I run a st205 factory rear strut tower bar on my st185 and didn't have to modify anything.
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Postby Roundy » Mon Jun 15, 2009 2:13 am

gtfour77 wrote:Quick Wilwood part numbers that would work for our application:

Front Rotors: 160-7172 (right) 160-7173 (left)
Hats: 170-8132 (bolt pattern: 12x8.75")
Hat offset: 0.41"

All of this will fit the alltrac spindle without much trouble (simple single plane bracket like the one I posted in my autocross build)


Another daft question from me :D

The hat offset you have there, is that right?

I am only asking because the C5 rotors are 46mm total height (like our rotors) and the wilwood replacement guide for the corvette has a hat offset of 0.25" but the total height is right on the money.

However with some 0.3" thickness is could shift the rotor further outboard!

Seriously looking at upgrading my brakes, and just trying to work out things like this before i order any parts.
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Postby gtfour77 » Mon Jun 15, 2009 7:22 pm

Roundy wrote:
gtfour77 wrote:Quick Wilwood part numbers that would work for our application:

Front Rotors: 160-7172 (right) 160-7173 (left)
Hats: 170-8132 (bolt pattern: 12x8.75")
Hat offset: 0.41"

All of this will fit the alltrac spindle without much trouble (simple single plane bracket like the one I posted in my autocross build)


Another daft question from me :D

The hat offset you have there, is that right?

I am only asking because the C5 rotors are 46mm total height (like our rotors) and the wilwood replacement guide for the corvette has a hat offset of 0.25" but the total height is right on the money.

However with some 0.3" thickness is could shift the rotor further outboard!

Seriously looking at upgrading my brakes, and just trying to work out things like this before i order any parts.



The 0.41" offset should be correct, you might want to call Wilwood to confirm this though. The total offset is 46mm but the hat thickness should be right at 1/4" or 5mm which would make it a 41mm offset. (less hat thickness) I am currently working on a lightweight brake setup using 11.75" rotors and JSK (Datsun) lightweight aluminum hats. Will have pictures soon. (after I come back from the DC Pro Solo next weekend)
The rotors will be about 45% of the corvette rotor weight, about 12lb saving on each side.
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