Opinions on Suspension setup ST165

Suspension and other discussion

Opinions on Suspension setup ST165

Postby GT4_Vinnie » Thu Sep 06, 2012 8:22 am

Hey guys

I just want to get some opinions on the optimum suspension setup.
Ideally I would need to make it suit my driving style personally, as none of you would know how I drive etc.
Just with living in NZ I'm limited to what options I can go.

I'm looking at upgrading my hubs to those from a 185, so calipers and rotors as well. BC Gold have an adjustable suspension setup for the 185's, with changing the hubs over, would this enable the 165 to run these coilovers?

For the moment, my trac's only gonna be used for street, not gonna be the daily driver, but definitely driven to show off. I'm looking for ideal handling with minimal understeer or body roll. While also keeping an acceptable level of comfort and durability.

I'm wanting to upgrade all my bushing to nolathanes, but with the price of doing so, may have to leave that for now, may also look at upgrading swaybars. Also if I was to go a set of adjustable's, then what would be optimum wheel alignment specs to produce increased handling, while not chewing out tyres every 5 minutes, camber on the left side over here, so usually stagger more negative on the left by about half a degree counteracts that.

I don't know what other options are available over here for the 165, or 185, so pretty limited. Do know of guy who's had a complete custom set of coilovers built with camber/caster plates etc.

On another topic, also wanting to have best braking power I can afford, so what are some modifications to the brakes which aren't detrimental to my bank account, I believe the 205 rear discs and twin pot calipers bolt on? May be wrong, would like to run front 205 and 4 pots, but unsure of what modifications are needed. Also when the time comes to replacing brake lines, I'm gonna get the goodridge braided lines for the 165, retail $200 over here.

Basically wanna get the best safety and handling features in before I get it on the road, as will all need to be certified, and can't be bothered doing that a few times, just wanna get it all done in one hit. If you wanna know what engine upgrades I've done, just ask and I'll try provide as much detail as I can.

All opinions are welcomed and appreciated.

Thanks
Vinnie
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Re: Opinions on Suspension setup ST165

Postby ZeroDrift » Thu Sep 06, 2012 12:41 pm

To do this on a decent budget, scratch the ST185 hub idea. The coilovers will bolt on to your ST165 hubs with either a ring spacer on the upper bolt, or if you just drill the upper hole larger and use the ST185 bolt. As far as brakes: overhaul all your brake calipers, put in Porterfield pads and stainless lines. Use ATE Super Blue or Motul brake fluid and make sure the system has been flushed out really well. If you are having issues with overheating your brakes, look into brake cooling ducts. The OEM backing has a scoop that may be easy to adapt a brake duct hose to.

Sway bars and bushings are great if you can! I'd opt for some Polyrethane bushings before going with anything (more) solid as this is a street car. I'd worry about the sway bars last, and if at that point, the rear would be more important than the front as it would help dial down the understeer.

Those are my thoughts. I've not yet gotten to this point with my ST165 and am speaking from experience with other cars I've owned.
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Re: Opinions on Suspension setup ST165

Postby underscore » Thu Sep 06, 2012 3:09 pm

My plan in which I hope to achieve something similar to what you're going for (I have a 185 but all this stuff is either compatible with the 165 or there is an equivalent part).

klue's solid rear diff mount & subframe bushings (Mario also makes a kit)
GT4 Racing poly front & rear suspension & swaybar bushings (Whiteline and SuperPro also make bushings)
GT4 Racing poly swaybar endlinks (TwosRUs also makes some nice ones)
BC Racing RAM Type coilovers (springs upped to 10k/8k from their default 8k/4k) - these have front camber plates (best bang for the buck I could find)
TechnaFit SS brake lines
ST205 rear brake conversion
Whiteline front & rear swaybars

And for the brakes I'm not sure if these will be a direct fit to the 165 but if you can swap over 185 rotors & calipers then this would work
Porsche/Brembo front brake caliper adapters (from someone on here)
Porsche/Brembo front brake calipers
2004 Subaru STi front brake rotors
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Re: Opinions on Suspension setup ST165

Postby Spectra1 » Thu Sep 06, 2012 3:39 pm

Whiteline front & rear swaybars


You actually got your hands on a Whiteline front sway bar??? Impressive, those are very hard to find if not impossible.
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Re: Opinions on Suspension setup ST165

Postby underscore » Thu Sep 06, 2012 4:37 pm

Not yet, I didn't know they stopped making them. I guess I'll have to get something else.
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Re: Opinions on Suspension setup ST165

Postby lumbercis » Thu Sep 06, 2012 10:10 pm

I'd like to hear from more people that have actually driven a car with full poly/solid rear subframe, all poly bushes and engine mounts, and coilovers with uprated swaybars. I can't speak from experience, but I'm thinking all that would make the car almost undrivable on the street. And I'm not even convinced it would result in better handling.

My plan is to take the car to an autocross event and run in as close to stock class as I can manage. Then add mods from there so I can judge what does and doesn't actually benefit handling. Once the car starts getting uncomfortable to drive on the street I'll stop there and be happy with the handling I have or do small improvements at that level so I don't end up with a car I hate to drive.
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Re: Opinions on Suspension setup ST165

Postby underscore » Thu Sep 06, 2012 11:34 pm

I've got the poly engine mounts in my GTS and its the greatest mod I've done, sitting at idle there are some more shakes but it's not too bad (and my GTS at 320k is likely a lot looser than a lower mileage, more gently owned car). I think I'll be one of the few to have gone to solid everything in a 185, I'm partially doing it out of curiosity (I figure I can always tone it down after) and partially because it seems every bushing and mount is worn out save the diff cushion (no clue how). I think the poly engine mounts & solid diff mount will add some harshness, but I don't think the rest of the stuff will have much impact.
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Re: Opinions on Suspension setup ST165

Postby freddie » Fri Sep 07, 2012 1:01 am

Hi Vinnie,
I take it you are in New Zealand, am I correct? I am also in your neck of the woods, Australia.

I am in the progress of re-building the rear end of my ST165. New suspension, new bearings, brakes exhaust etc.

I am using MCP coilovers. Guess where I got them from? That's right New Zealand. McMannon Racing Products.

Give Barry a call. Sorry I can't find his address at the moment. Look up Toymods on the internet, he is a sponsor. He has heaps of experience with toyota's and a good guy to talk with. I am rapped with what I have got. Got the spring settings that I wanted and all at a good price.

I bought SuperPro suspension bushes here in Oz. I grizzled to SuperPro that the guys in Alltrac US were getting a better deal on price than we were here, and guess where they are made? So they lined me up with a dealer and I got a fantastic discount.

Whiteline no longer make swaybars for the 165 and they have stopped making the bars for the 185 as well. I bought a rear swaybar for a ST185 which I am going to try to fit on my 165 tomorrow. They look the same other than a couple of little offsets in the bar. I figured that the chassis rails are both in the same place, same rear cradle and rear diff.same type suspension between both models, therefore it should fit. Anyway I will get it to fit. I am going to use spherical rod end bearings (we call them rose joints) and adjustable rods to connect the swaybars to the suspension. The front swaybar, I am using the original bar, remounting it and tweeking it a bit with rose joint connections.

Brake pads for the ST165 here downunder are starting to get a bit harder to find on the ground. Try E Bay I got a set of EBC Greenstuff rear pads from a vender who was selling bankrupt stock for a 1/3 of the price. There are others too.

About the only decent brake pads available here (other than paying mega bucks for) is EBC pads. If you are getting ripped off on the price of these in NZ, then buy them direct from the UK. and pay the freight. That is what I have done in the past. The Pom's are right up there with exporting car parts, good prices and reasonable freight costs.

Another source of info is Ozcelica forum. Join them, nice guys.

Hope this has been it of a help.

Cheers
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Re: Opinions on Suspension setup ST165

Postby underscore » Fri Sep 07, 2012 2:58 am

freddie wrote:I bought a rear swaybar for a ST185 which I am going to try to fit on my 165 tomorrow.


I read recently that the 185 bar will fit provided your 165 didn't have ABS. If it did, there's a section you have to pop out and replace with a plate.
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Re: Opinions on Suspension setup ST165

Postby loudstealthGT-Four » Fri Sep 07, 2012 10:14 am

freddie wrote:.........
I am using MCP coilovers. Guess where I got them from? That's right New Zealand. McMannon Racing Products.

Give Barry a call. Sorry I can't find his address at the moment. Look up Toymods on the internet, he is a sponsor. He has heaps of experience with toyota's and a good guy to talk with. I am rapped with what I have got. Got the spring settings that I wanted and all at a good price.



Heres a link to the MRP website with Barrys contact details

http://www.mrpltd.co.nz/contact_us.php? ... cef049f4af

He deals MCP Coilovers which are very well priced.
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Re: Opinions on Suspension setup ST165

Postby Geoff » Sat Sep 08, 2012 7:35 am

We've recently gone through a lot of this with our 165, here is what we have done:

Replace front strut inserts with Koni adjustables. These have really stiffened the front end. We've kept the original front sway bar.

Replace rear sway bar with a Signature adjustable bar - these are made in Sydney, and they have a template for the 165. Contact is Todd Selby ph 02 4421 2722. Cost was $295 inc postage. This bar is almost identical to the Whiteline one (which is no longer available), and has totally transformed the handling.

Upgraded front brake calipers to later ST185 single pot (bought used from ebay, new seals & boots fitted)
Installed new RDA slotted front rotors to match (bought from a Melbourne ebay dealer)
Installed EBC Yellowstuff pads front & rear (bought from a UK based ebay seller)
Brakes are a lot better now. We are doing a track day in a few weeks, so that will tell the real story.

Installed poly bushes front & rear, including replacing the rear spherical bearings with poly bushes. We used a mix of whiteline & superpro - basically whatever we could buy. This took out all the looseness in the suspension. The rear diff mount is in perfect condition, so we haven't changed it. The rear sub-frame bushes appear to fine as well. The bushes we replaced were both ends of the trailing arm, and both control arms, on both sides (ie 12 bushes).

Filled 3 of the engine / gearbox mounts with poly (from Bunnings). the 4th mount was still in good condition. This seems to have worked fine, we've done numerous events including a gravel rallycross with these mounts fitted and they appear to be hanging in fine.

The car is now very tight - no knocks, rattles or other suspension noises. Handling is really good, but probably a bit stiff for daily use. If we back off the Konis & rear swaybar it's ok, but I don't think I'd do a long trip in it. We use it mostly for low-end motorsport, and keep it road registered.

Edit - we've thought about coilovers, but are trying to keep the car legal & they are not liked by the popo here.
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Re: Opinions on Suspension setup ST165

Postby GT4_Vinnie » Sat Sep 08, 2012 10:57 am

Thanks for all the quick replies.

Ive looked into those MRP Coilovers for a price and availability, but also can get full bc gold set for the 185 for $1500. Has anyone got any experience with either or both to point out likes/dislikes etc?

Ive also checked through Nolathane, and they supply polyurethane bushes for the following for the 165, FRONT = Lower inner front & rear control arm bush kit $229. 24mm swaybar bush kit $59. REAR = Lower trailing arm bush kit $139. 14mm swaybar bush kit $59. Would those be all i needed, plus maybe solid filling a few of the engine mounts, or would it be better to find a supplier with larger range of options?

I'm looking around for swaybars, thanks for the contact info. Also wondering regards strut braces etc, front and rear, I've seen a few on http://www.rhdjapan.com/toyota/st165-185-205-celica and they actually don't look to hard to fabricate. Would making my own be a way, for both front and rear, or are they more of an appearance feature on the trac's?

Cheers for the brake info, I'm looking at SS lines, just hoping to find a New Zealand supplier, otherwise its gonna be $300 shipped from the states. Wanting to know, there's the Brembo adapters made, what about ones for st205 calipers and discs, would they provide the same sort of braking performance with some decent pads and rotors? Mainly wanting to overhaul the brakes with a more guaranteed upgrade then just overhauling stock, as engine wise should be running at least 350hp when I get her running =). And if anyone would be willing to sell and 205 calipers fronts and rears?

Really wanting the best performance/handling for my limited budget.

Cheers guys.
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Re: Opinions on Suspension setup ST165

Postby GT4_Vinnie » Mon Sep 10, 2012 6:50 am

So i got in contact with Barry, He has got a real nice price for the coilovers, he also said he could do brake kits for me.

A 286mm 4 piston kit is $1400
302mm 4 piston $1500
320mm 4 piston $1600
330mm 4 piston $1650
All kits come with slotted rotors, braided brake lines and pads.

Would these kits be good, worth getting, or would it be better to try find others? Also what would be the best size to run, I'm thinking the 302mm would be ample, Hoping to run 17inch rims to.

Also those bushings that I posted in the previous post, would I need anymore then those or just stick with them for now?

Thanks
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Opinions on Suspension setup ST165

Postby loudstealthGT-Four » Tue Sep 11, 2012 9:06 pm

Im running BC Golds in my ST185 haven't had any issues with them
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Opinions on Suspension setup ST165

Postby loudstealthGT-Four » Tue Sep 11, 2012 9:12 pm

As for the brake kits, they use a Wilwood 4 piston caliper, very good quality and as for the kit it is a straight bolt on kit, so no mucking around with modding anything, really wish i'd just bought one of Barry's brake kit to save f@$&ing around with the ST205 calipers
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