Hydra Autotune?

Talk EMS and Computer related performance

Re: Hydra Autotune?

Postby klue » Mon Jan 03, 2011 5:05 pm

You are talking bullshit. I often use autotune and it never misses a beat.

Use a proper EMS, not AEM or Hydra or something like that and then you can say whatever you want.

I use Autronic, Vipec, Pectel and they have EXCELLENT autotune.[/quote]


Wow, for real!
Im talking bullshit, please do inform us! obviously you feel your opinion is better is far superior to anyone else.
Members don't see the above ad. Register now - it's free!
facebook.com/xiiimotorsports
#xiiimotorsports ON instagram
User avatar
klue
GTFour God
 
Posts: 3893
Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2004 9:47 pm
Location: Greater Toronto Area

Re: Hydra Autotune?

Postby Hic » Tue Jan 04, 2011 6:04 am

OK if you want to put it that way.

My opinion is not opinion of the forum guy who learned about his car from other people's experience.

I tune cars for a living and I have to be VERY careful not to do damage to customers, or to hand over a car which is unreliable.

Do you think I would (or any erspectable tuner, mechanic, etc) depend on something that DOESN'T WORK?!?!?!

Man, please get your thoughts straight. That is why I called your words bullshit, not to directly offend you, but the way you put it is simply that.

A lot of EMS's today use Autotune, Quicktune or some other name as a selling feature, a stuff that will convince the end customer to buy the ecu as it will "tune itself" which is also bullshit.

Autotune feature on Autronic or Vipec will tune the complete fuel map on the dyno in 20mins.

There is still a tuner that has to be born to do this MANUALLY.

There is a nice movie to show how fast this feature is on Vipec ecu:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jel2P1slIag

or this one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uBDkWpwSiN4

On the dyno, there is no faster and more reliable way, as the ecu maintains the same AFR on the road.

This is a FACT, and you have to PROVE me that all the work I did is WRONG and that everything you see that I posted is a lie.
Hic
Club Member
 
Posts: 360
Joined: Sun Dec 05, 2004 6:22 pm

Re: Hydra Autotune?

Postby Hic » Tue Jan 04, 2011 6:11 am

[quote="Mafix"]hic:
have you put your car on a dyno to verify this?[/quote

Yes Mafix,

my car is first road tuned, they dyno tuned so I can find the MBT.

In both cases, AFR stays the SAME. That is one big advantage of the propery designed ecu algorithm.

Many cars that I saw had to be checked on the road after a dyno tune, because the load and temperature would lean the AFR.
I use dyno after a road tune, simply because that is cheaper, and the cars don't like dynos. That is how I do it for 10 years now and NEVER, but NEVER had a destroyed engine or any kind of problem with my cars.

You just need to use a proper ECU and have a good logical flow of thinking. There are no secrets here.
Hic
Club Member
 
Posts: 360
Joined: Sun Dec 05, 2004 6:22 pm

Re: Hydra Autotune?

Postby Mafix » Tue Jan 04, 2011 12:59 pm

very good. it's good to hear that someone has had a good autotune experience. at least it's not complete BS from the ems manufacturers. now the next question in the line...how is the timing tune going?
Mafix
Gold Member
 
Posts: 5877
Joined: Tue Aug 10, 2004 10:56 pm

Re: Hydra Autotune?

Postby Hic » Tue Jan 04, 2011 4:50 pm

timing?

knock detection and dyno....no other proper way.

you can road tune safe, but you can be overadvanced or have quita a few ponies hidden
Hic
Club Member
 
Posts: 360
Joined: Sun Dec 05, 2004 6:22 pm

Re: Hydra Autotune?

Postby klue » Tue Jan 04, 2011 5:18 pm

Its great to get insightful information, every better when you dont have to make everyone else feel like they are stupid to do so. I should have worded better, I have not used VIPEC management for auto tune, I have used autronic(manually tuned) for last years Targa NFLD alltrac, and I strongly dislike that system. For the systems I am most fimilar with AEM, PFC, HYDRA, and MS, the auto tune is very unreliable, certainly not something I would trust over my own ability.

As it applies to this topic, and the person asking the question my statements remain, autotune is in unreliable. Incase we have forgotten the original post is regarding HYDRA systems, not either system which has been proposed as having a good auto tunee function. I did exaggerate a bit, but it was more to get my point across that if your relying on an autotune function to tune your car then you shouldnt be doing it. Of couse if your and expert like "hic" then you should be just fine with the auto tune. But for the average user, probably not a good idea.

For every person there is a differnt method, and no one should feel they are superior or call another bullshit. For example, if you were to describe your tuning method to my tuning instructior Chris Mancerello fromerly of EFI 101, he would probably chuckle a bit and invite you to a tuning class with him.

Everyone has their favorites, for the money (around 1000 or so used) AEM hydra and PFC work well on most applications. Vipec, motec and some of there systems are more expensive and thus more robust. I like the KISS method, so I stick with what has worked just fine and doesnt break the bank. Weather its my personal 300hp toy celica, or 720 awhp skyline seems to do the job just fine. Mind you the guy at the dyno place locally HATES aem, says it has a random miss(which I think it does to mostly under idle) but that is not seen on every car.

Mafix, knock threshold tuning IMO is only safe on the dyno. The dyno produces maximum load conditions that are hard to replicate on the street. Its actually quite easy to get a very accurate idea of safe timing using best torque method

anyway this is getting long, enjoy the thread.
facebook.com/xiiimotorsports
#xiiimotorsports ON instagram
User avatar
klue
GTFour God
 
Posts: 3893
Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2004 9:47 pm
Location: Greater Toronto Area

Re: Hydra Autotune?

Postby Hic » Tue Jan 04, 2011 5:31 pm

Klue,

my instructor was Ben Strader, a good friend of mine ;)

Ben used to use SM4 for the class, showing students Autotune on dyno.

I even can find pictures to back this up.

BUT, this isn't a pissing contest and I would strongly tell the user to pay the proper tuning to experienced tuner.

Autotune is great option if behind it is a good quality engineering.

Second thing, you cannot use AEM or some other "shitty" wideband.

I always use Autronic B gas analyzer, and I tuned more than 200 cars with it, and NEVER had a single small problem.

The tools used IS OF UTMOST IMPORTANCE!
Hic
Club Member
 
Posts: 360
Joined: Sun Dec 05, 2004 6:22 pm

Re: Hydra Autotune?

Postby Mafix » Tue Jan 04, 2011 7:04 pm

i was only picking at hics brain. i know how to tune and i've been very sucessful in it. and my method is completely different than both of yours. to each his own. but i dyno tune first and then fine tune on the street (in the no boost areas). and my timing maps are very straight foward and i pre write them from a certain base standpoint and tune from there.

the point of my picking on the timing area is that MOST people fail to remember that the timing area is just as critical as the fuel area and is certainly not done by any autotune i've ever used. hence another reason autotune blows IMHO.

but since it's obvious that the 3 of us are tuners, we really should stop bitching at each other, and go have a beer.
Mafix
Gold Member
 
Posts: 5877
Joined: Tue Aug 10, 2004 10:56 pm

Re: Hydra Autotune?

Postby klue » Wed Jan 05, 2011 6:38 am

Im always interested to hear someone else's opinion. Now that all the background checks are in order lve got a question, whats wrong with the AEM wideband vs another brand? Its hard to get support for autronic stuff here in canada.
facebook.com/xiiimotorsports
#xiiimotorsports ON instagram
User avatar
klue
GTFour God
 
Posts: 3893
Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2004 9:47 pm
Location: Greater Toronto Area

Re: Hydra Autotune?

Postby Hic » Wed Jan 05, 2011 9:07 am

AEM doesn't have temperature compensation. Different EGT, different readout. I personally pushed their engineer on SEMA this year UNTIL he admitted :D

I tend to use only 2 AFR meters (maybe 3).

Autronic B gas analyzer

NGK AFX http://www.ngksparkplugs.com/products/p ... ce/afx.asp with UEGO probe of course

(I don't know if you know, bur NGK has a chip that is in 20 000$$ Horiba laboratory Af meter, so....)

Zeitronix (it is temperature compensated afr readout).

I don't believe any other to tune my engines, and I would use Zeitronix only as a backup to safe tune if my lambda meter dies suddenly.
Hic
Club Member
 
Posts: 360
Joined: Sun Dec 05, 2004 6:22 pm

Re: Hydra Autotune?

Postby klue » Wed Jan 05, 2011 8:20 pm

Ok, so to further that what would you say is the ideal range(EGT) to run an AEM meter with the bosch sensor?
I have noticed some slight inaccuracy when the engine(no EGT temp on this car) temperature gets abnormally high or other heat soak conditions.

Im assuming the temperature compensation units would aslo have a EGT probe built in?
facebook.com/xiiimotorsports
#xiiimotorsports ON instagram
User avatar
klue
GTFour God
 
Posts: 3893
Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2004 9:47 pm
Location: Greater Toronto Area

Re: Hydra Autotune?

Postby Hic » Wed Jan 05, 2011 8:43 pm

No, you cannot have a good temp compensation with shitty bosch LSU probes, which are pump-cell design, and very prone to pressure and temperature.

You have to use proper NTK UEGO lambda, which is veery expensive just by itself.
Hic
Club Member
 
Posts: 360
Joined: Sun Dec 05, 2004 6:22 pm

Re: Hydra Autotune?

Postby Mafix » Wed Jan 05, 2011 10:38 pm

the hydra and my haltech use ntk sensors. i'm not sure on my current model but the hydra used l1h1 sensors which had a huge range and were super sensitive. i had no reliability problems at all with them, and to agree with hic, the bosche sensors seem to be as unreliable as they are cheap. that is also one of my biggest peeves about the AEM stuff. great system but they seem to have been getting cheaper and cheaper on what they use and thier price doesn't reflect that.
Mafix
Gold Member
 
Posts: 5877
Joined: Tue Aug 10, 2004 10:56 pm

Re: Hydra Autotune?

Postby coyoteboy » Thu Jan 06, 2011 6:29 pm

MS autotune did a fairly good job of the bulk of my fuel table, but i was over multiple hours of driving to be fair. It got maybe 80% of the table to within 0.5 of target AFR which drastically reduced the time I spent driving about with a friend logging. Decent auto-tune algorithms identify when any two datalog points are comparable and a reasonable description of the site being tuned (i.e out of warmup, not in accel enrich, not in too much of a transient). It gets you from a base map to a usable map. But fuel is relatively simple in comparison, and you still need to check the extremities manually - it's not a plug and play solution, but I don't thnk it's ever sold as that..
'91 ST185 ATA.Megasquirted, MHG,SSAC 3" DP, fully wrapped 2.75 inch system,K&N,Forge DV, JDM ST205 turbo&transmission,JDM MR2 turbo engine.
http://www.gt4ec.net << The GTFour Enthusiasts Club
coyoteboy
Club Member
 
Posts: 410
Joined: Wed Aug 25, 2004 11:07 am
Location: Wigan, UK

Previous

Return to EFI Corner

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests