Tuning and Build help.

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Re: Tuning and Build help.

Postby WarTowels » Tue Mar 20, 2012 6:44 pm

Have you ever driven a car with 650 horsepower?

How about 300 horsepower?

With the parts you've listed I'd guess you could do 200-250 to the wheels. Expect to pay another $15,000-$30,000 for the other 400 horsepower.

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Re: Tuning and Build help.

Postby jonahs_3sgte » Tue Mar 20, 2012 6:46 pm

im not to sure the factory front feed manifold will work well at 650 whp
IIRC reading somebody did a flow test and cylinders 1 and 4 run lean
so a custom intake(or maybe side feed intake) will be needed
not to mention bigger injectors
dual feed fuel rail
fpr
bigger fuel pump(maybe even dual pumps or a nice big inline pump)
exhaust
ignition will probably need upgraded
adjustable cam gears
bigger cams
98+ 5s block(would be ideal for thicker ribs and sleeves)
a clutch to hold the power lol

my 90 gts i swapped in a jdm 2nd gen
had the following mods:
usdm ct26(jdm ct26 exhaust wheel flew off lol)
3in down pipe
3in full exhaust
boost set to 12
stage 3 6 puck clutch
lightened flywheel
90 gts 5spd trans
custom front mount intercooler
225/55r16 bfg tires

i had absolutely no traction in 1st and 2nd gear even with my modest upgrades lol
lost a bunch of dig races due to this
but at the track i did manage a 14 second run

couldnt imagine 650 whp in a fwd celica lol but good luck
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Re: Tuning and Build help.

Postby jensenni1 » Tue Mar 20, 2012 6:59 pm

jonahs_3sgte wrote:im not to sure the factory front feed manifold will work well at 650 whp
IIRC reading somebody did a flow test and cylinders 1 and 4 run lean
so a custom intake(or maybe side feed intake) will be needed
not to mention bigger injectors
dual feed fuel rail
fpr
bigger fuel pump(maybe even dual pumps or a nice big inline pump)
exhaust
ignition will probably need upgraded
adjustable cam gears
bigger cams
98+ 5s block(would be ideal for thicker ribs and sleeves)
a clutch to hold the power lol

my 90 gts i swapped in a jdm 2nd gen
had the following mods:
usdm ct26(jdm ct26 exhaust wheel flew off lol)
3in down pipe
3in full exhaust
boost set to 12
stage 3 6 puck clutch
lightened flywheel
90 gts 5spd trans
custom front mount intercooler
225/55r16 bfg tires

i had absolutely no traction in 1st and 2nd gear even with my modest upgrades lol
lost a bunch of dig races due to this
but at the track i did manage a 14 second run

couldnt imagine 650 whp in a fwd celica lol but good luck


Well theres always dreams of course im just interested in seeing if it would be feasible to attempt or if id rather go chasing after another engine to mod. Ill be attending school with the ultimate goal of tuning ems and doing swaps in custom shops and id prefer to have an engine to practice and play with. The Celica fits it rather well i think. I have driven a 440 hp gxp before but nothing higher and yes it was a massive thrill. I understand the work and money required for a project like this, modding aint cheap. 200-250 is rather modest dont you think? its jdm to begin with...
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Re: Tuning and Build help.

Postby jonahs_3sgte » Tue Mar 20, 2012 7:12 pm

jdm 2nd gens are 225 hp and 225tq(IIRC lol)rated at the flywheel of course
do the upgrades that i did and you'll be happy
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Re: Tuning and Build help.

Postby jensenni1 » Tue Mar 20, 2012 7:45 pm

jonahs_3sgte wrote:jdm 2nd gens are 225 hp and 225tq(IIRC lol)rated at the flywheel of course
do the upgrades that i did and you'll be happy


XD i would however....If i add that to what i have i might as well keep going :P. I may decide to just sell this one eventually and pick up an alltrac....The thought of AWD interests me greatly :)
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Re: Tuning and Build help.

Postby KORacing » Tue Mar 20, 2012 7:55 pm

4rsnduction wrote:Just out of curiosity why not get an AEM ECU ?


How about to start with: AEM discontinued their MR2/Celica 3SGTE EMS.

Add to that the 2.7 Hydra can do flex fuel, has better resolution, better idle control, built in wideband controller, better knock sensing and it's pretty clear to me which one I would choose.

I have similar plans for my own 3SGTE (custom 2.3 stroker using a 98-2002 5SFE block) build running a 6765 (wish it was a 6766) turbo with a custom top mount manifold. It's no small feat to get to your goals, but goals are there for a reason. I've had 400 and 500+ whp in my own car, and want to make more primarily as a showcase for KO Racing.

I know Trevor (tjdouble07) is tuning his car himself now, but I tuned his car for him when it was more modestly built (520 awhp).

Tips for tuning or learning to tune:
1. Save and save often. Never overwrite your map.
2. Ideally use a laptop with a serial port, though starting with 2.7, it is possible to avoid any corruption issues using a USB to serial adapter. That doesn't mean they aren't still flaky and can have communication issues.
3. If you do pay to have your first tune done that is probably best and then you can tweak from a known quantity that should be good. It's pretty hard to break a built motor off boost, so that's the place to start trying things. Play with the software and don't be afraid to ask questions, or try things and then reload your last map if it doesn't work out.
4. Try playing with programmable outputs and think of the possibilities.

With the Hydra, I'm the point of contact for customer service for the Alltrac and MR2 communities, so I get most of these types of questions via email or phone usually and will help up to a point: I won't tune your car over the phone.

Regarding JDM vs. USDM gen 2 engines: they are mechanically identical inside the longblock. Any difference in power is related to the octane of fuel, and boost level they are tuned to run stock, not some magical difference inside the engine.
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Re: Tuning and Build help.

Postby jonahs_3sgte » Tue Mar 20, 2012 8:18 pm

XD i would however....If i add that to what i have i might as well keep going :P. I may decide to just sell this one eventually and pick up an alltrac....The thought of AWD interests me greatly :)


i love my alltrac but miss my supra and my 90 gts
getting another supra this weekend :)

for me i dont really care for the awd portion of the car...i like it for how rare they are
main reason i got my alltrac was low miles(66k) and 100% bone stock...not to mention the great price lol
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Re: Tuning and Build help.

Postby concealer404 » Tue Mar 20, 2012 8:52 pm

jensenni1 wrote:
klue wrote:
jensenni1 wrote:I thought that was rather obvious...


If your asking for pointers then its not that obvious.

Its probably better if you just pay someone to do it properly on the dyno.


Well i thought pointers was the reasons forums existed? i could probably figure it out on my own i was simple looking for a few tips or tricks for first timers. Its not like i was looking for a how-to on tuning, :p I know all software and hardware has quirks so it helps to know that when setting item A to the X value its usually best to not allow item C to go above Y value or w/e. Thats all :p



I believe the point was that you need much more than some pointers, my friend. :)

You've got a lot of research to do. Don't bother with twin turbos. ESPECIALLY don't bother with CT-framed turbos. Do NOT do anything relating to "max overbore." This isn't a a big block chevy.

Big cams. Strong bottom end, built head, custom intake and exhaust manifolds, huge turbo.

If you want to get exotic, give a compound turbo setup a try.

But first, get your read on. For many hours. :)
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Re: Tuning and Build help.

Postby concealer404 » Tue Mar 20, 2012 8:55 pm

KORacing wrote:
4rsnduction wrote:Just out of curiosity why not get an AEM ECU ?


How about to start with: AEM discontinued their MR2/Celica 3SGTE EMS.



That's the worst news i've heard all day.

I can safely say the thing i hate the most about my turbo Miata is that damn Hydra. Followed closely by the $275 wideband sensors that Hydra requires.



[edit]

Before that post comes out sounding like an instigation, it's not meant to be, and i apologize if you took it that way, Kris. I haven't heard many bad things about it when used specifically on 3sgtes. Seems i'm part of a large portion of the Miata community that's driven batty by this thing, though.
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Re: Tuning and Build help.

Postby 4rsnduction » Tue Mar 20, 2012 9:31 pm

jensenni1 wrote: jun crankshaft

Degrees and lift duration please

jensenni1 wrote: eagle rods


H Beam or X beam ?

jensenni1 wrote: new valves


Stock size or oversized ?

jensenni1 wrote: stock pistons (if im not stupid they were rated at 650hp? so due to budget i neglected it...bad decision).

Stock pistons....maybe a little over 350hp before you start gamble with your engine.
More power means more psi which means more heat....stock pistons dont like heat

jensenni1 wrote: Then down the road when i have moneyz to take the car down and redo the engine in all aspects. New everything, complete cleaning and rebuild, the works. Thats where the goal of 650+ comes in. At that point id be having someone come tune it and traveling to a proper dyno.


So am i correct in saying you didn't waste any time or money putting these parts into your engine, it just came like that.
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Re: Tuning and Build help.

Postby monkey8oi » Tue Mar 20, 2012 9:33 pm

KORacing wrote:
4rsnduction wrote:Just out of curiosity why not get an AEM ECU ?


How about to start with: AEM discontinued their MR2/Celica 3SGTE EMS.

Add to that the 2.7 Hydra can do flex fuel, has better resolution, better idle control, built in wideband controller, better knock sensing and it's pretty clear to me which one I would choose.

I have similar plans for my own 3SGTE (custom 2.3 stroker using a 98-2002 5SFE block) build running a 6765 (wish it was a 6766) turbo with a custom top mount manifold. It's no small feat to get to your goals, but goals are there for a reason. I've had 400 and 500+ whp in my own car, and want to make more primarily as a showcase for KO Racing.

I know Trevor (tjdouble07) is tuning his car himself now, but I tuned his car for him when it was more modestly built (520 awhp).

Tips for tuning or learning to tune:
1. Save and save often. Never overwrite your map.
2. Ideally use a laptop with a serial port, though starting with 2.7, it is possible to avoid any corruption issues using a USB to serial adapter. That doesn't mean they aren't still flaky and can have communication issues.
3. If you do pay to have your first tune done that is probably best and then you can tweak from a known quantity that should be good. It's pretty hard to break a built motor off boost, so that's the place to start trying things. Play with the software and don't be afraid to ask questions, or try things and then reload your last map if it doesn't work out.
4. Try playing with programmable outputs and think of the possibilities.

With the Hydra, I'm the point of contact for customer service for the Alltrac and MR2 communities, so I get most of these types of questions via email or phone usually and will help up to a point: I won't tune your car over the phone.

Regarding JDM vs. USDM gen 2 engines: they are mechanically identical inside the longblock. Any difference in power is related to the octane of fuel, and boost level they are tuned to run stock, not some magical difference inside the engine.



now this is the man you want to talk to.. chris knows his shit when it comes to the hydra.. he flew out to california to tune my st165.. THANKS KRIS!!!
Last edited by monkey8oi on Tue Mar 20, 2012 10:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tuning and Build help.

Postby tubasteve » Tue Mar 20, 2012 10:36 pm

Kris is on Trac....lol.

That sucks about aem, bit we have had several aem units fail prematurely.
Just a thought.
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Re: Tuning and Build help.

Postby KORacing » Tue Mar 20, 2012 11:04 pm

concealer404 wrote:
KORacing wrote:
4rsnduction wrote:Just out of curiosity why not get an AEM ECU ?


How about to start with: AEM discontinued their MR2/Celica 3SGTE EMS.



That's the worst news i've heard all day.

I can safely say the thing i hate the most about my turbo Miata is that damn Hydra. Followed closely by the $275 wideband sensors that Hydra requires.

[edit]

Before that post comes out sounding like an instigation, it's not meant to be, and i apologize if you took it that way, Kris. I haven't heard many bad things about it when used specifically on 3sgtes. Seems i'm part of a large portion of the Miata community that's driven batty by this thing, though.


I have been tuning Hydras since version 2.0, so depending on which one you have, I have probably encountered every issue you can think of, and am aware that there are/were many quirks and they can be frustrating to deal with, especially if you have to rely on someone else to do the tuning. There were definitely ECU related issues on many of the early ones (2.0-2.1), but with the new 2.7 I feel the ECU is 95% there to be THE premium option for anyone going to a standalone under $2k. ,An ECU, however, is only as good as the tune (and tuner) and if there are specific issues you have with the tune on it, they can probably be addressed assuming there isn't some mechanical or electrical issue outside of the tune.

I think Jeremy at Flyinmiata provides a guide to tuning it in yourself, but as many as I have tuned, and as much as I've learned over the past 8 years of tuning these, I can't see the end user arriving at the same tune without some serious time involved to figure out all the nuances of both the specific engine and the EMS.

I sell replacement NTK wideband sensors for $175 fyi. They are indeed more expensive sensors, but they are also more robust if properly installed (never install an O2 sensor pointing up into the exhaust, 10degrees above horizontal downward minimum please!). I've run them for 3-4 years with leaded race fuel used frequently without a problem installed next to the turbo in the downpipe -- where a Bosch LSU4.2 sensor will typically die in 6 months or less due to the extreme heat. The wideband sensor is only really necessary to have in the exhaust on the Hydra while tuning. If the tune is good, no wideband necessary for regular driving, or you can use the stock narrow band o2 for closed loop operation in the absence of the wideband (another thing you can't do with the AEM). I like to tune such that it runs pretty much identical with or without the o2 sensor present. I typically take several days to complete a tune as I don't typically settle for "close enough", and it's really not feasible to get cold start just right in one shot.

One little know fact of tuning is that 90% of the tune is off boost, and not at WOT. Many people focus on the WOT dyno pulls because that is the flashy part of tuning, and you get to see how much power your build makes, but really that is a small part of a complete tune. The goal should always be to run and drive like stock or better (usually better) and just have that extra 100, 200, or 500+hp on tap when you want it.
Kris/Lilly Osheim
KO Racing, Inc.
www.koracing.net
MR2 Turbo "Loki" -- 11.1 @ 128mph

Hydra Nemesis EMS PnP Exclusive distributor for 3SGTE Celica Alltrac/GT4

Certified Hydra Tuner -- I will travel to tune.
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Re: Tuning and Build help.

Postby klue » Tue Mar 20, 2012 11:45 pm

Well said
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Re: Tuning and Build help.

Postby l0ch0w » Wed Mar 21, 2012 12:13 am

If you want 800+whp rating, then you probably need to re-evaluate alot of things...

First, you need to consider your block choice... A gen 1,2, and 3 block just wont cut it. They crack near the water pump area, and have an inferior casting alloy. Either go with a factory new block, a gen 4, or 98+ 5s for your block.

Secondly, your bottom end will need a little more than just eagle rods and stock pistons... Might I suggest either Crower or Pauter rods, and wiseco pistons. A fancy pants crank is not necessary... You MUST know what you are doing here... its highly adviseable to have your whole rotating assy fully electronically balanced and blueprinted...

Consider alternative fueling options like e85, its more widely available than race gas, and its cheaper. It has an equivalent AKI rating of 105 IIRC....

As nice as the Hydra EMS is, Might i suggest something more mainstream like a haltech, vipec, or motec? When you start talking about graduating to the 650awhp club there is alot of material that is not mainstream knowledge. So its advisable to switch to an EMS system that there is a broader marketplace for with high horsepower application. Please stay away from AEM v1 boxes... the QC on them is absolutely terrible...

For VE improvements (volumetric efficiency) the stock configuration starts systematically failing at the 350 awhp level. The misconception is that ve improvments actually give you more power. And this is wrong... They only serve to make developing power easier and at different RPM levels and lower boost levels. For example: the stock camshafts help to develop peak torque around the 3500 rpm range, but start to fall flat around the 7000 rpm level. When you increase power it is typical to also want more rpms. So, by switching to say 262 duration cams, peak torque might change to 4500 rpms and start falling flat closer to 9000. Other examples of VE improvers include intake manifolds, exhaust manifolds, exhaust systems, head porting, and intake systems. If you incorrectly add a VE improver to a system that does not need it yet, you can actually hurt flow and develop lower power... A great example of this can be seen from people who port their gen 2 heads, and then subsequently develop less power. All of this means that your motor must harmonize all of its components together for your engine to develop your desired power goals.

The 3SGTE is not the 4g63 or the k20... there are NO more mainstream racing teams using this platform, and most of the mods you need to do to reach huge hp levels need to be done on your own...


The builds that actually come to fruition are the ones who have some sort of plan to finance, and create an end product. You must scrutinize every part and system of your motor, because at those power levels nearly everything needs some sort of upgrade. If your budget is only $5K you need to understand what your limitaions are at that point... Dudes like pat, and tj both have well over $50k into their cars... and they are among the few who have cracked the 800awhp barrier...
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