Why our blocks crack.

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Why our blocks crack.

Postby Wolf_Tm250 » Sat Mar 29, 2008 8:04 am

Given that someone asked me, i'll write now my idea on this.
Opinion that i got after searching many info and experimenting a lot on 3sgte.
It ended that i bought a Wrc very expensive shorter block, and with all the other parts and mods NECESSARY to fit it, it costed to me 28000 euro only in parts... Fyi, ONE M11 tte head bolt costs 60 euro, and a REAL Tte Wrc head gasket costs 600 euro... not talking of the rest...
I'm lucky that i made ALL the built and mods by myself!

But now i know i could avoid that expenses.

I think i'm one of the few in the world that bought new St185rc and new St205, and i have to say that with both, even if brand new, when you switch off the engine, you'll hear bubbling in the rad pipes.

Do you know why we have pressurized water cooling system?
This is not for increase water boiling point when the engine is running... radiator, water pump, rad fan and thermostat valve provide the temp to stay under liquid boiling point... this is to avoid liquid boiling when you'll switch off your engine and the liquid in the block will be heated up a lot.
If the rad cap pressure point it's not high enough, the liquid in the block will boil... and this is what happens in our new cars!... in the hottest point of the block, liquid will become vapour, and vapour will not cool anymore the block, and this will become a weak point (usually in the back of 2nd cylinder).

This is to say that IMHO, based on my little experience, with a stock 86mm, not rebored, block, and a 1.3 bar rad cap, you will be fine.
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Postby Gary ST165 » Sat Mar 29, 2008 10:16 am

hi Wolf_Tm,


there has been a recent threads on GT4OC & GT4DC discussing the various blocks and revised cooling systems available:


Block Cracking/TTE/503e/Caldina/Beams pictures: http://www.gt4oc.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=73816


hob wrote:TTE Block:
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Was on another forum (and a thread about mapping came up) in particular a person by the name of Gerry Gaffney (does dastek mapping in scotland)

Gerry Gaffney wrote:As for the comments on the quality of the mapping, I mapped the car personally, & having mapped cars for the likes of Alistair McRae, Carlos Sainz, & Julian Bailey (I was an engine builder for Toyota Motorsport), as well as having taught over 50 rolling road tuning companies in the UK how to map cars, I'd like to think I have a proven track record here.


So naturally I had to ask a question about engine blocks :P, mainly from this thread of TTE parts prices from Hic here

block gp A (unbreakable!!): 1450E 3mm lower than std block

So anywhoo I asked:-

Gerry Gaffney wrote:Hi Hob,

I worked for Toyota GB (ST185 3S-GTE Grp A) & Toyota SA (Camry & Corolla 3S-GE ISTC)

The only difference is that the blocks were hand picked from the production line, & ultrasonically tested for core shift & uniform thickness. The only other bit that was 'special' was that the head bolts were 20mm longer (& the coresponding threads in the block deeper) allowing greating clamping force for the head gasket, other than that just normal competition engine building practices.


So to me looks as if it was just a thickwalled stock block (for the 185 ?) the price of ~£1000 seems in line with that of a new block from mr T ? (£700 + vat?)

But... the 205 block now (unsure if it's due to lack of stock/ production) is about £2700 and I'm still intrigued as to the difference between that and stock as the water ways etc must be the same as it fits a stock faff head afaik ?

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*UPDATE*

Finally found a picture of a TTE 185 Group A block :D

"The engine they had on the rally-cars are very much different from the stock 3s-gte, they tired to run stock blocks in the beginning but it last about 20min before they cracked.
I´m not sure about all the models but in the st185 engine TTE special made:
Block, used another metal, 3mm lower
Crank, forged steel
Oil-pan, titanium with different internals
Oil-pump, high volume
Water pump, high volume
Headgasket, steel
Cams, special-made
and so on....."

Deffo made from another material as everyone I have spoken to have said the same thing...

TTE:
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TTE Vs Stock (Both 185):
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Image shows that toyota cast the block (notice the logo present on both top right)
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means to-yo-ta in japanese.

You can see the difference in height also notice what looks like generally cleaner casting?, I wonder if internally (#2 & #3 in particular, *edit* it doesn't look like it and still seems a weak spot!).

Toyota Cast all of the motorpport bloks (503e/tte etc) used in pikes peaks etc, TTE just machined the block to fit the gearbox etc, it was most likely produced in Toyotas Kamigo Plant.

The block can take a lot more abuse as the rally cars did run ~ 450 ft/lb of torque, it is suggested that the beams engine (lexus IS200) has a revised block (used in corolla wrc)....

Sooooo long shot in the dark, *maybe* toyota made the beams block stronger in the revised design so that the corolla could run with a stock block? There is a suggestion on another forum (3sgte block cracking) that the beams engine is stronger and much less likely to crack..

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The 503e Engine Block:

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Caldina Revised Engine:

(ok I *think* this is the caldina block, the one where mr T changed part numbers in 98/99, more on this below)

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*Intresting bit*

The caldina block apparantly fixes one other cracking problem:

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"That's got to be a stress crack where the block is at its weakest when trying to hold the head down. On your next block, I strongly suggest getting one of the post '99 blocks that are solid through that area behind the water pump instead of having that small little "hump" to hold the stud in."

"I have the number for the block, as im using one of those right now and yes they are reinforced around that area
everything fitted except that 4 bolts holding the "splash guard" in the oil pan was M8 instead of M6, so you just have to drill larger holes in that plate, no big deal"

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Now the even more intresting bit:-
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(Block is a gen 2 185 one!)

Cut my block apart today, just to see how it locked. the thinnest part i could find where between no2 and 3 cyl in the water channel 3,22mm
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But in the crack the thinnest part was 3,97mm
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Here is the backside of the crack in cyl 2
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So looks like it has cracked in the thickest part of the block?

Also looks like maybe the blocks are also cast from inconel the same as the manifolds?

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Similar colour 8)
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Lexus "Beams" 3sge:
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The final incarnation of the 3sge range, featuring a revised head with vvti this engine came in various states of tune "red/grey/black top" from mr2/celica and lexus models.

According to rally & high bhp cars on the net, this is the block to get, Lexus derived thi is apparently a much stronger block. Toyota changed to this block during the wrc testing phase after ditching the faff block and iirc it also had a quad throttle body system on the inlet manifold.

The casting marks on the outside have less relation to the 503e and the faff block looks more like the 503e externally, what I hope is that lexus/toyota revised the #2/#3 coolant passage to be more like the 5s or improved further, this can only be confirmed by ultrasound/cutting the block up. Unfortunately these blocks are very very rare!

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503e/185/Beams
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Beams/TTE outer casting
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Beams/Caldina
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i would sincerely appreciate if you could go into further detail regarding your current TTE/WRC set up.


Would you be willing to share some pictures please?













and the 2nd thread details the very same need for a revised cooling system / swirl pot arrangement:


3S-GTE Cooling: http://www.gt4dc.co.uk/forum/viewtopic. ... ight=swirl



TrackToyFour wrote:This is the start of a series of posts which will describe and illustrate the modifications required to the cooling system on the 3S-GTE when it is subjected to sustained periods of high rpm operation such as track days and racing. The focus will be predominantly on the Rev3 engine and the ST205 Toyota Celica GT-Four in particular although illustrations from other models will also be used.

The diagram below illustrates the standard engine cooling layout on the 3S-GTE as fitted to the ST205.

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The layout below is the design for my own track prepared ST205. This layout is similar to that used by the Toyota Team Europe ST205WRC and road car modifications by companies such as Fensport.

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TTE ST205WRC Header Tank
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TTE ST205WRC Header Tank
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TTE CorollaWRC Header Tank
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TTE ST185 (Kankunnen 1992 Rally Australia spec) showing oil/water cooler and radiator end tank vent line to header tank
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TTE ST185 (Kankunnen 1992 Rally Australia spec) showing oil/water cooler and radiator end tank vent line to header tank
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TTE ST185 (Sainz 1991 Acropolis Rally spec) showing vent/bleed line fitted to head/radiator hose and associated radiator end tank bleed lines
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TTE ST185 (Sainz 1991 Acropolis Rally spec) showing header tank and associated radiator end tank bleed lines
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TTE ST185 (Sainz 1991 Acropolis Rally spec) showing s/s braided block air bleed line at right hand side of block and horizontal hot water line running directly from the head to the thermostat housing.
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TTE ST185 (Sainz 1991 Acropolis Rally spec) showing s/s braided block air bleed line
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TTE ST185 (Sainz 1991 Acropolis Rally spec) showing s/s braided radiator end tank air bleed/expansion line
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TTE ST205WRC with a similar cooling configuration to the TTE ST185 above
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Fensport ST205 Swirl Pot and vent lines
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Fensport ST205 Header Tank Mk1. This was the first design tried but proved to have insufficient height causing it to overfill.
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Fensport ST205 Header Tank Mk2. This design used modified mounting brackets to gain an extra couple of centimetres in height. Compare and contrast with the TTE Header Tank at the top of this photo sequence.
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If you find the time, please come and share your experiences on the UK forums.


Thanks in advance.


Gary ST165
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Postby ST185pinjo » Sat Mar 29, 2008 11:18 am

:shock:

This is some realy good info guy's. Now what is the bleed line for exactly?
For realeving the Hot vapor when the engine is just turned off, so the pressure has somewhere to go?

I must say that I have an oilfilter relocation, and my waterline doen't go through the OEM oilcooler anymore. My watertemps have been reduced quite a lot. I have no actual numbers, but the stock temp on the stock gauge would be in the middle. Now with the oilcooler bypassed, the neelde of my gauge is pointing about 1/4 of the gauge instead of 1/2 at high way speeds. If I put my foot down or in city traffic the gauge will raise, only to come back down again when able to drive a bit.
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Postby Corey » Sat Mar 29, 2008 2:15 pm

Those are some amazing pictures.

Just curious, what is the purpose of the header tank?
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Postby Wolf_Tm250 » Sat Mar 29, 2008 2:31 pm

PS1: TTE WRC block 85.80mm costs 3600 euros.
For 1450 euro you can get only an used and rebored to 86.20mm block.

PS2: later I could do pics... but THIS is not what I meant in this topic, to compare blocks.

What I'm saying is:

#1: NOT ONE cooling system in the world absolutely have to make the liquid to boil AFTER the switch off of the engine.
If that happens, the cooling system is not working as it should.

#2: in my experience, ANY ST185 & ST205 I had, me or my friend, ALWAYS have the cooling liquid boiling after switching off the engine.

#3: if you have cooling liquid boiling with engine off, YOU HAVE FOR SURE an hot spot in the block that takes the liquid to its boiling point, AND in this hot spot the vapour will not remove the heat, and it will be a more weakened point ANY time you'll switch off your engine.

#4: a 1.3 rad cap cures the unwanted cooling liquid boiling.
So no more hot spots in the block.

#5: problem is that NO ONE ever changed the rad cap when OUR cars where new, so they ALL suffered from this problem.
And so with the age, mileage, and more power, it will happen that the block will crack in those points.

So mine was just an advice to absolutely fit a 1.3 bar rad cap !

Bye.
Wolf_Tm250
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http://www.youtube.com/WolfTm250

DynoJet whp are false, and closer to other dynos FW hp. Please specify what dyno are your Whp from.
http://www.factorypro.com/magazine/dynojet_dyno_inflated_hp_reason.html
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Postby hob » Sat Mar 29, 2008 4:53 pm

Ah nice thread 8)

If you could get some pictures of the tte block I would be very thankful.

The increased pressure in the cooling system will help prevent cavitation cracking, but this seems to be only one side of the problem.

If it was the answer for high bhp applications I do not think tte would have cast a different block after trying the 205 block initially and discounting it as a viable block to use in rallying.

They even ditched the tte 205 block in favour of the lexus derived beams 3sge.
hob
 


Postby Wolf_Tm250 » Sat Mar 29, 2008 5:02 pm

hob wrote:Ah nice thread 8)

If you could get some pictures of the tte block I would be very thankful.

The increased pressure in the cooling system will help prevent cavitation cracking, but this seems to be only one side of the problem.

If it was the answer for high bhp applications I do not think tte would have cast a different block after trying the 205 block initially and discounting it as a viable block to use in rallying.

They even ditched the tte 205 block in favour of the lexus derived beams 3sge.



Hey, don't run ! :)

Remember TTE WRC cars run 800 and more Nm of torque, anti-lag, 2+ hour of Special Test at WOT.. high heat and high stress to be dissipated !

Mine was the answer to stock block broken with stock bhp after many years/miles.
But I even suppose that a BRAND NEW block, with 1.3 bar rad cap will last longer, supporting many mods and bhp.
We can't forget that ALL our cars suffered, when new, of cooling liquid boiling ANY time they were switched off.

Any time you had the cooling liquid boiling, you had, every time, an hot spot in the block, and so a weakening in the block in that point... EVERY TIME !

As stated above, it was not a thickness issue.. correct ?
Then it's for another issue...
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DynoJet whp are false, and closer to other dynos FW hp. Please specify what dyno are your Whp from.
http://www.factorypro.com/magazine/dynojet_dyno_inflated_hp_reason.html
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Postby Fourplay » Sun Mar 30, 2008 10:07 pm

Wolf_Tm wrote:As stated above, it was not a thickness issue.. correct ?
Then it's for another issue...


This has been discussed in depth on the MR2OC.

Here:

http://www.mr2oc.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=28165

Continued here:

http://www.mr2oc.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=29149

Wolf_Tm, instead of increasing cooling system pressure would you consider lowering it and using Evans coolant instead of water? That would be an interesting experiment. I see from some of the photos above that Fensport are using it in their engines.

BTW, that's cool you owned an 185RC and an ST205 brand new :D
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Postby Wolf_Tm250 » Mon Mar 31, 2008 11:11 am

Fourplay wrote:
Wolf_Tm, instead of increasing cooling system pressure would you consider lowering it and using Evans coolant instead of water? That would be an interesting experiment. I see from some of the photos above that Fensport are using it in their engines.




I can't say for sure if it would be good as well... but it's something that you could know very easily...
just throw it in, and listen if the cooling liquid boils after switching off the engine... :wink:
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DynoJet whp are false, and closer to other dynos FW hp. Please specify what dyno are your Whp from.
http://www.factorypro.com/magazine/dynojet_dyno_inflated_hp_reason.html
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Postby sleeper » Wed Apr 02, 2008 7:56 am

I cracked my block lars season on a 1/4 mile drag..

the engine was running about 500hp ( 1.75kg boost), and had worked great for 2 seasons.

( since i`m from norway i will try to write as good as i can)


the track i was at is about 100miles away from where i live, so i had to drive the car this way to get to the track.
the car got testet good on the trip ( doing 160mph run at full boost) and the engine seemed to work great.

but when i got to the track i only got 300m before the engine cracked.

so i thought that it was wierd that it cracked so fast when it was good for the 160mph pulls..
then i remember that i had for the first time ever i had turned off the heater in the car, with lead me to think that the problem was not surficient cooling for the engine ( the engine temp was 95C when i started the run)
i have never pushed the engine without having the heater on, and the first time i turned it of the block craks..

this was on a 2 gen 3sgte, and the block cracked at the stud by the water pump.


so what do you think? think that this can have something to do with it?
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Postby Wolf_Tm250 » Wed Apr 02, 2008 1:16 pm

sleeper wrote:so what do you think? think that this can have something to do with it?




Sleeper,

I can't say for sure if this can have something to do with.
Many many things come into the play.

What I can say for sure is that:

1. Not one engine in the world has to suffer from cooling liquid boiling after switched off.
1a. Pressurized rad cap are intended to absolutely avoid this.
1b. ST185 and 205 suffer of this issue from factory, so this is a project/manufacturer fault.
1c. This issue disappears using 1.3 rad cap.

2. Cooling liquid boiling with engine switched off MEANS ALWAYS that you have an hot spot around one/more cylinder that makes it to boil.

3. Vapour CANNOT remove ANYMORE heat from the metal, and so you have a material overheat/expansion, and then cool down/contraction:
that is to say, a material weakening in that point.
Wolf_Tm250
Gt-Four ST205 [2.34kg/hp DynoDynamics]
http://www.youtube.com/WolfTm250

DynoJet whp are false, and closer to other dynos FW hp. Please specify what dyno are your Whp from.
http://www.factorypro.com/magazine/dynojet_dyno_inflated_hp_reason.html
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Postby **BETSY** » Wed Apr 02, 2008 4:05 pm

Great thread!

Look up the renault 21 Turbo, they had a Electric water pump which continued pumping coolant around after you switched the engine off, great idea!
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Postby Fourplay » Thu Apr 03, 2008 2:52 am

After-cooling with an electric pump has been shown to work, but I think it's important to determine the cause of this problem.

A water cooled turbo will definitely increase the chance of coolant vaporization after the engine has been shut down, while running Evans coolant instead of water will greatly reduce the incidence of localized vaporization near hot spots within the engine.
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Postby GTfour@alltrac.net » Tue May 20, 2008 11:48 pm

ok so i'm going to fit a 1.3 bar radiator cap. i'm going to run evan's coolant AND i'm going to get an electric aftercooler system that runs the water pump to circulate coolant after engine shutoff.
should this totally eradicate the possibility of the block cracking even if i circuit the car?
or would i still have to install a swirl pot type setup like TTE and fensport cars?
p.s. i have no idea what most of this tech stuff even means lol as a matter of fact what does TTE stand for?
seriously though if my block isnt already cracked i'm definately changing to a 1.3 bar cap before i even tumble the engine again and i'll definately look into getting the evan's coolant.
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Postby Corey » Tue May 20, 2008 11:52 pm

as a matter of fact what does TTE stand for?


TTE = Toyota Team Europe. they ran the toyota rally scene for a few decades.
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