upgrading wta intercooler?

Q&A regarding engines, turbos, and intercoolers and power upgrades

Postby WideFNopen » Fri Feb 20, 2009 2:10 pm

I ran the extra 165 HE and had the constant run mod on my 165 setup before i swapped in a RC motor and it cooled very well, much better than stock.

I would like to see the data that says that this is not a solid upgrade.
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Postby WideFNopen » Fri Feb 20, 2009 2:11 pm

built2run wrote:mybe slightly better flow but the core is the key to the system the 205's core can hold up to 500hp


Are you sure that they will do this without a chemical intercooler?
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Postby built2run » Fri Feb 20, 2009 6:36 pm

ya look around gt4oc there are st205's at 500+ hp and the stock core maybe a larger HE and the pump running all the time. as was said b4 on here ATA looks better and is simpler, thats where the advantages end
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Postby Insanity-74 » Sat Feb 21, 2009 7:40 am

built2run wrote:ya look around gt4oc there are st205's at 500+ hp and the stock core


Really?? I`ve been a member of the GT4OC for 4+ years and am currently staff on the GT4OC and I cant think of a single st205 running 500bhp (although I`m sure there is one maybe two) and certainly cant think of one using the standard charge cooler. Its the current fad over there to put on a FMIC, which ALL of the big power cars have done...and alot of the little power cars aswell mores the shame.

I`m a big fan of the charge cooler system and the more R&D we do the better we can make it, but most just junk it and fit a FMIC.

In fact I think I`ve probably got one of the highest BHP cars still using a charge cooler and mines far from standard...and with only a modest <340BHP

I think you`ll find the stock charge cooler struggling at around 350 - 400 BHP...although this depends greatly on the type of turbo your running etc etc.

The TTE rally cars used a deeper core than you get on the road cars, and they ran only around 350BHP
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Postby Insanity-74 » Sat Feb 21, 2009 4:01 pm

Well after a bit more research I`m man enough to admit that I`m wrong............the basic criteria for the charge cooler pump to be "on" is that the throttle is open and the pump only turns off 30 seconds after the throttle has been closed..quite how having the pump run constantly would make any difference is a mystery...but on the other hand I`m going to have to admit that making it run constantly wont make it any worse......if you are going to run the pump constantly then a fan for the charge cooler radiator would be a good improvement and keep things nice and cool , but having the pump running when the car is stopped isnt going to cool anything due to no airflow.
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Postby 6strngs » Sat Feb 21, 2009 7:52 pm

Insanity-74 wrote:Well after a bit more research I`m man enough to admit that I`m wrong............the basic criteria for the charge cooler pump to be "on" is that the throttle is open and the pump only turns off 30 seconds after the throttle has been closed..quite how having the pump run constantly would make any difference is a mystery...but on the other hand I`m going to have to admit that making it run constantly wont make it any worse......if you are going to run the pump constantly then a fan for the charge cooler radiator would be a good improvement and keep things nice and cool , but having the pump running when the car is stopped isnt going to cool anything due to no airflow.

well, yes. But I believe also after the 30 seconds of it running, it does not run again for a few minutes and then after that time is up, it begins running again after you step on the throttle again. I could be wrong though. that's what it says at gtfours.co.uk

Anyway, if I were wrong though and it just ran for 30 seconds after hitting the throttle, then if you were idling for a while wouldn't the coolant in the core be much hotter than the stuff in the heat exchanger? So if you were to suddenly hit the throttle then the core would be full of hot coolant which wouldn't be great to cool the air. while if you had the constant run, then while idling the coolant would keep circulating which would take longer for it to heat up.
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Postby RafaCalde » Sun Feb 22, 2009 1:47 am

anyone know how much power a 185 RC intercooler can make.
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Postby 6strngs » Sun Feb 22, 2009 5:50 am

Anyway, I'd still like to know, for my power goals, is it going to be better to go with a FMIC or the WTA IC? I will eventually be using an aftermarket turbo and I don't know how well it'll line up with the WTA IC. I want something I can drag race with, but will still be fun to drive on the street and on curvy mountain roads and such. I figure I can build a decent FMIC set-up for around $300-400. While it'll cost me almost $300 just for a ST205 core. Plus I'm about to buy an ST205 pump for ~$60. Plus a heat exchanger will run about $100-200. Plus any couplers I'll need to make the IC work with a different turbo, etc. So, $450-600 for the WTA set-up. any thoughts?
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Postby darthripley » Sun Feb 22, 2009 6:20 am

^ sounds like to me you just answered your own question.
really comes down to preference & how easy you want the install to be.
i think the only real prob w/a FMIC on a ST165 is keeping the fog lights (or so i have read) if you even care about that.
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Postby redGT4 » Sun Feb 22, 2009 6:33 am

WTA setup for sure with the largest heat exchanger you can fit. I got quoted around $1200Australian for a custom setup that he said would easily handle 400-500hp, but then again if your spending $$$ for large hp then cooling costs.
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Postby 6strngs » Sun Feb 22, 2009 6:35 am

I don't really see how I answered my own question as I still don't know which I want. lol. I guess I'll get the pump for now so that way I'll still have some form of working IC while I try to decide what to do.

anyone know what size FMIC most ST165 guys run? I don't think there'll be much room for it to get good airflow so a tall intercooler like a 26x11x3 wouldn't be any better than say, a 26x6x3.
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Postby Fourplay » Sun Feb 22, 2009 6:44 am

Insanity-74 wrote:a fan for the charge cooler radiator would be a good improvement and keep things nice and cool , but having the pump running when the car is stopped isnt going to cool anything due to no airflow.


There will be airflow. From the radiator fan(s) when they cut in.
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Postby Insanity-74 » Sun Feb 22, 2009 8:58 am

Fourplay wrote:
Insanity-74 wrote:a fan for the charge cooler radiator would be a good improvement and keep things nice and cool , but having the pump running when the car is stopped isnt going to cool anything due to no airflow.

There will be airflow. From the radiator fan(s) when they cut in.


I can sit with my car not moving for a good 5 mins before the main rad fans cut in and there flow isn’t good enough to pull a significant amount of air over the charge cooler radiator...its too far away from the fans.....you`d would have to put in dedicated fans for the charge cooler radiator.

...but anyway this is getting away from 6strings question. I think that the best way forward is often the simplest and cheapest...a FMIC will get you much colder intake temps than a charge cooler ever will...the standard charge cooler just isnt good enough, especially if you want to go beyond its design perameters.....your best bet is to go onto a Mitsubishi Evo owners club site, or E bay and find an evo4/5 core....they are the perfect size to fit on a GT4..they are a good design with good flow.....will handle over 400bhp and most importantly they are cheap. the hardest part it getting the right bits together for all the pipework but all in all the whole set up is lighter, cheaper and more effective when moving than a charge cooler....both systems have a down side though,,,the FMIC suffers a bit when your not moving, but you could easily solve this by fitting a SPAL fan to it. I`m assured by people who have gone along the FMIC route that there are no issues with extra turbo lag and they have seen an mprovement over a charge cooler......one guy saw a 40BHP increase by just fitting a FMIC and having his ECU remapped to suit which are good numbers in anyones book.

Unless your prepared to make your own custom charge cooler, then a FMIC will give you lower intake temps than a standard charge cooler ever could.
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Postby darthripley » Sun Feb 22, 2009 6:30 pm

6strngs wrote:I don't really see how I answered my own question as I still don't know which I want. lol. I guess I'll get the pump for now so that way I'll still have some form of working IC while I try to decide what to do.


well it just seemed to me $$$ wise you had sold yourself on a FMIC setup :shrug:

we're doing the ST205 WTA setup but i have a real clear cut path for eventual power goals & that setup fits what i have now & will have in the future.

without any kind of vent on your hood the FMIC would keep the temps lower imo.
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Postby johndgt4 » Fri Feb 27, 2009 12:14 pm

Bosch pumps = crap. I've been through about 3 and am just sticking with the Toyota one now. It's got the best flows necessary and you can rebuild it. Bosch etc fail on both those counts.

I've just emailed Cory a few of my thoughts and here they are....

Hi Cory,

From the research I've done in the past the estimated limits for the 185 RC WTA and 205 WTA are approx. 350BHP and 400BHP respectively. These figures were quoted by an ex-TTE guy.

Obviously, without restrictors, the Group A cars would have been pushing approx 500BHP and based on the fact they used water injection and race gas you can probably get a bit more from them by using water injection too. I do and everything seems quite happy. I may be looking into fitting a restrictor to my car at some point, with a tailored, compressor as this can help to improve torque due to the benefit of the restrictor actually speeding up the air through the bellmouth.

A larger heat exchanger will not do any harm esp. on 165/185 WTA systems and good insulating of the core on the underside should always be done. The restricting factor to the system is not it's ability to shed heat, which it does very well, but the fact the charge air does not spend a lot of time actually in the core so there are limits to how much the air can be cooled unless you use an ice reservoir and that's really more suited to a drag car than a daily driver. In the summer upping the coolant capacity with a reservoir can help slow down the overall heating rate of the system. Depends on the summer temps in your area. I think the TTE guys used approx. a 20L tank in the boot for the Safari rally. Nial on the OC actually had a custom top mount WTA core made and has found that has had an effect on the overall temps due to a larger surface area available to the airflow but nothing really dramatic,esp for the time/cash involved, so a good 205 setup really is a good way to go. I don't think Nial is looking to put his WTA into production and it looks a bit agricultural too. On my car I have dual 9" SPAL fans and run the pump constantly so that there is no heat soak at any speeds including sat at standstill.

If you do upgrade to a better rad an Audi 100 radiator can make a good upgrade. Make sure you look for the type with the inlet/outlet at the same end though for ease of fitting.

The Toyota pump is the best out there end of story. The same pump was used on the Group A cars and is relatively easily rebuilable as long as you remember the impeller nut is a reverse thread. I didn't first time around!!! Doh doh doh!! Nothing a bit of work on a milling machine can't sort out though.

The Group A cars used a swirl pot at the highest point. Can be useful to bleed the system but not really necessary.

If you have a A/A185 now you can fit a CC under the bonnet but make sure you remove all the metal parts under the hood scoop as it can rub the core/possibly cause a leak. You would be better off with an RC/CS bonnet/bumper though.

If you fit one with the old bumper in place you can just about get a Fiat Cinquecento radiator in there as a pre-rad as the MR2 guys do. Might take a bit of work with A/C.

Also you can fit a 205 core straight on with the throttle body adapter off a 205. Takes a bit of work but nothing too major. Some people cut/reweld the turbo inlet pipe so the core sits straight but it doesn't need to if you make some brackets.

If you do look to fit a standalone ECU in the future the mapper will thank you for having a WTA system as, generally, you won't get temps as low as a FMIC in some instances but the temps during pulls are solid and repeatable rather than varying a lot which can happen with an FMIC. It's the water's ability to absorb heat spikes that helps. This morning we had an ambient of 12/13°C and once upto highway cruising speeds the intake temps sat at around 22/23°C. Under boost temps would not rise above 30°C.

I've tried to put most of my thoughts down here but if there is anything else you'd like to know just ask and ill try to help.

Cheers

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