Ice Racing in Thunder Bay Autosports Club

dkpain

New member
Just finished my second race weekend.

1992 GT-4 RC.
GTX Class. Studded.

I will try to post as much as I can about how the car is running. Today did very well. Hope that the car keeps performing the way it is. I'm pushing to the absolute limit. 2nd 3rd gears shifting up there at 7000. touching in fourth for a bit. The club had a radar gun out there and shows top speed around 120 KM/H. I really think we're moving faster than that. There's a Eagle Talon out there that's just insanely quick. He's pushing somewhere in the 325+ HP. There are a couple tuned CRX's out there running real strong, but the AWD keeps me pulling ahead of em.
I'm not having any real issues yet. Just trying to keep the temp down. The air temp today was around 0 degrees c. So around lap 7 or 8 of the 2.75 km track, she was starting to warm up. have flushed all the fluids before the season and am keeping up on the maintenance. Man, the car is awesome. You throw that thing in there deep and it can pull you back out, also if your slow getting in just roll on the throttle, exits quick.
What do you guys think that a good boost pressure to run would be? Got my MBC set to 0.9 Bar, seems fine. Just don't want to cook things cause we got 6 more race weekends.
Got lots to do to the car this summer and all the info is right here. Got some forced induction VERY knowledgeable guys here helping me out, but you guys got the ST185 knowledge. Will be asking questions as I go here. As far as I know the car is damn solid and I am quite impressed with its output.
Thanks for this great resource.

Pics.
 

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dkpain

New member
Found some more pics. My car and the rival. 98X AWD eagle talon. Its basically like a evo rally car.
 

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CSAlltrac

New member
That talon might be faster making more power, buuuut it looks retarded, the alltrac still looks amazing :smokes: sounds and looks like you get to have tons of fun.
 

dkpain

New member
Tons and tons of fun. Just trying to keep it reliable. Have to change oil and rad fluid this week. Put exhaust back on the car as it fell off. Then repair tires. Lots of work but well worth it. Will post more pics as soon as they hit the internet. Trying to find video as well. The car made a few clips on our local news station.
 

klue

New member
yea put that heatsheild back on the turbo if you can.
If your in thunder bay ontario send me a PM!
 

dkpain

New member
I like those other shots.
Why do I have to have that heat shield on? I was thinking that i would want to expel all that heat with it off. The only thing that was happening was the throttle cable housing was getting pipping hot. As well the little rubber seal or something around the bonnet vent melted, besides that no other issues. Considering I'm changing oil after every Sunday I also wanted to easier get to the oil filter. Hopefully next weekend will be colder. I'm trying to track down a video camera to get footage in the car. If anyone in thunder bay wants to lend me their video camera we could mount it before Sunday.
I think its sad to turn the car into a ice racer, but got a good deal and wanted something truly capable. I expect to develop the car much more over the next several seasons hopefully campaign it to a couple championships.
 

Jason88AllTrac

New member
Awesome, someone else ice racing an alltrac, and in studded class nonetheless!
Love the pics. For the overheating issue just pontificating... you may just need a new radiator and/or a high output fan to assist when vehicle speed is not very high or sideways :) Lots of guys run a big aux oil cooler in front of the radiator as well, which can make a HUGE difference in a turbocharged car. Also, an aftermarket downpipe will increase power, reduce underhood temperature AND give better access to the oil filter.

I am planning on doing studded class here next year. I have to aquire/fab a rollbar/door intrusion beam first.

Does your club limit your studded class to using the menard spec tire (as it appears you run)? We have found that homebuilt studded tires (SL=stud limited) can perform as well or better than the menards, for less money. As the menards are supposedly no longer being made and more and more people are having the caps throw off of them, the homebuilt tires will be getting more and more popular. We also have a SU=Stud Unlimited class with no limit to the number or length of studs. These tires shred the ice, but can get grip much better than even that of a race tire on asphalt; insane grip.
 

dkpain

New member
Finally,
Another ice racer. So we did 7 races this year. Won Studded class, and overall (hopefully).
First Issue. Tires. went through eight of em. Menard tires. They didn't hold up. They may be good for the rear tires in some heat races next year. But their not fast anymore.
Besides that i had absolutely no problems. I crashed twice on the same day. the last day. It was warm(slippery) and i had the wrong tire pressure all day. No real damage but some stuff to straighten out. Not to mention she almost caught on fire, from the exhaust breathing on the tunnel, as i hit a snow bank at a 100k with the rear end (trying to save it as i dove in way to hot, and because i was following a 200+ hp CRX, and a 350-400 horse eagle talon. Therefore, zero visibility:)
the car pirouetted. I saw sky for a moment.
Again no problems with the car. The thing is tough.

One day the motor spit up some water. The weather was way to warm. no big deal.
I changed the oil after EVERY weekend. I think the motor is still perfectly sound so I am not taking the head off this year.

over the summer gonna pull the motor, do a clutch and flywheel. Solid mount rear end. Lighten the trunk lid, fuel cell. Loose the ABS. loose the Air Conditioning, exhaust (do up proper) and intake. relocate battery.

This car is super capable, stock, (with boost turned up a little) and we ran away with the whole show. I think I won three or four feature races, and an endurance race (50 min).

I am not trying to get gobs of horsepower from this thing yet, but i am going to lighten the car. I scaled it with half tank. and me in it. 3007 lbs.
59 percent front, 41 percent rear.
51 - 49 crossweight.

Gonna balance the thing out a little more. Also add a wing to nail it down at high speed. I don't care if guys say it does nothing or looks lame. I Know that if you make one the right size and place it properly. They work. 135km. Was our top speed. The track was not built for top speed. Next year, depending on what the club does, it may be something different.

Our club is looking at doing the bolt thing. but it chews track pretty good:(
So we don't know. more than likely menard tires. I used windsheild urethane all year.. on the lugs of the tires. If you could sometimes make the urethane stick good it gives the tire more to wear on. I think it's the only reason i made it all year on eight tires.

currently searching for parts, don't know good from bad on any of them. Any advise on any thing let me know. Ice racing is truly crazy shit. You really find out what your car is made from as it will be at full song for 8 laps in a heat (3 heats in a day). and 10 laps in the feature. That car took everything i threw at it and we worked good together to put it to the front each race. To get where i eventually want the car to be, I think that i am going to pound the pavement and get some local businesses to sponsor the car. As I am in business for myself I believe I can scrounge up a few bucks from friends. I want the championship for a number of years with this platform, and the key is to keep it reliable.

Anyway gotta go. To bed that is.
 

Jason88AllTrac

New member
I agree they are quite the tough car. I crashed a lot during "unofficial" practice, but not during any of the actual races. I was amazed at how well the car took the hits into the banks and sometimes rally style rough track surface with no actual damage to speak of. We had banks from just 6" up to 2" at various points during the season. Sometimes glare ice and sometimes really rough. I did build a front skidguard to help stop snow and ice getting caked under by the prop shaft, and I think something is in order for the rear as well.

I am amazed your car is that light with a cage installed and things such as AC still in place. Mostly just the interior is missing, and lightweight wheels? What else? 260-270hp is relatively easy, and with just 3000lbs that makes for a good ratio. My 165 has yet to undergo any weight reduction.

A guide one of our more inventive members wrote on building the "bolt" tires. Note his winged yellow focus in my ice racing thread.
http://www.michiganiceracingassociation ... =tire+tips
The "SL" style tire (less than 1/4") does not chew up the ice that much. It is comparable or maybe slightly more than a menard tire, but nowhere near as bad as a SU tire. You don't have to deal with chunking, or throwing the caps off. You do have to spend a lot of TIME building them. I plan to build a set for next season.

The reason for the SU and SL classes are because we have had such a poor turnout for studded racing. I think the SL tires give many advantages to the Menards. Menards are (IN MY VIEW) expensive, not quite "reliable", limited in size, tall, and going away anyway. They were very decent performers, fairly well designed, but had a lot of drawbacks that limited the stud racing (around here anyway).
 

dkpain

New member
To lighten up the car to the point that its at, i think alot of that weight cam from the doors, and the seats. They weighed like 100 lbs a piece. Holly crap, I could barely lift the friggen driver seat out of it. If I remember correctly it had that bolster air bag in it. Really heavy. Threw in a kirkey race seat that I found on kijiji. not sure what style of seat but fits me like a glove. Had to modify it a little to get it centered in front of the wheel. Also to get me low enough to get my helmet on.
The motors in the doors were insanely heavy. Lost the mirrors and glass and everything. Then I made 5mm lexan windows. I bent them by using a tiger torch. You blow the heat down a stove pipe on the ground. Hold the lexan over it and bend till curved properly. (there was more to it than that but).
The menard tires didn't hold up that great. I have been nominated to take a place on the executive board for the ice race club so i will be pushing the ATV stud option for the club. If we reduce the stud count (to get the same grip as the menards) than we could use either or. but menards are just too expensive for how long they last. I could understand if they lasted maybe two seasons, but eight in one year. I dont know.
The aluminum skid plate is a excellent idea and I am going to do the same. Need protection there. Need to beef up the aluminum front bumper. I hit it hard into snow and it did nothing. But if i nail another car, the front, rad, intercooler rad, and other stuff are toast. lots of ideas. Anything you can or anyone can think of for ice racing should be posted here. The sport is unreal.

Question: 1
Exhaust. What should I do? I'm going to fab my own stainless one. I think 2.5 inch as I don't need 3 inch. But a good header and down pipe? What EXACTLY should I be getting.

Question: 2
Clutch and flywheel. Which? Not too crazy just something that'll be good for ice. I got a nissan technician who is a real race car enthusiast is gonna help me. I want to collect all the parts I need and get them here than schedule him in so.

Question: 3
Blowoff valve. Which and why? Is it really required? Ran all year without. Recirculate? or no? Remember. Not a street car. Recirculating seems to me isn't necessary. A little squirt of fuel in between shifts seems like maybe some insurance. Keeping things a little rich? Not a bad idea for a race car as I don't have to care about fuel economy.
 

dkpain

New member
Had our club banquet last night. Rookie of the year. Studded class A winner. NAPA Studded series champion. And Thunder Bay Autosports Club overall Champion. Thank you alltrac. Next year hope to do it all again. Now just gotta find some sponsors. Especially tires.
 

Jason88AllTrac

New member
dkpain":3uag5glp said:
Had our club banquet last night. Rookie of the year. Studded class A winner. NAPA Studded series champion. And Thunder Bay Autosports Club overall Champion. Thank you alltrac. Next year hope to do it all again. Now just gotta find some sponsors. Especially tires.
Great job! Sure the car is a big part of it, but it takes a good nut behind the wheel to be a winner.

dkpain":3uag5glp said:
To lighten up the car to the point that its at, i think alot of that weight cam from the doors, and the seats. They weighed like 100 lbs a piece. Holly crap, I could barely lift the friggen driver seat out of it. If I remember correctly it had that bolster air bag in it. Really heavy. Threw in a kirkey race seat that I found on kijiji. not sure what style of seat but fits me like a glove. Had to modify it a little to get it centered in front of the wheel. Also to get me low enough to get my helmet on.
The motors in the doors were insanely heavy. Lost the mirrors and glass and everything. Then I made 5mm lexan windows. I bent them by using a tiger torch. You blow the heat down a stove pipe on the ground. Hold the lexan over it and bend till curved properly. (there was more to it than that but).
The menard tires didn't hold up that great. I have been nominated to take a place on the executive board for the ice race club so i will be pushing the ATV stud option for the club. If we reduce the stud count (to get the same grip as the menards) than we could use either or. but menards are just too expensive for how long they last. I could understand if they lasted maybe two seasons, but eight in one year. I dont know.
The aluminum skid plate is a excellent idea and I am going to do the same. Need protection there. Need to beef up the aluminum front bumper. I hit it hard into snow and it did nothing. But if i nail another car, the front, rad, intercooler rad, and other stuff are toast. lots of ideas. Anything you can or anyone can think of for ice racing should be posted here. The sport is unreal.

Everywhere I hear that weight is perhaps one of, if not the absolute biggest factor in a ice race car with limited traction. Bigger deal in rubber to ice, but the same thing applies in the stud limited/menard classes. I plan to prepare my blue 165 this summer for rallyx/ice in prepared class. Already have more of the stuff ready. I think that between gutting the interior, removing AC, single fiberglass racing seat, and an odyssey battery (relocated to hatch) I should be able to drop about 200lbs.

I would suggest your rules allow the use of regular sharpened bolts instead of studs. They are FAR less expensive, and untrue to popular belief they won't wear out when only used on ice.

Ice racing is a niche sport that very few people know about. It's perhaps the most fun I have ever had in a car and I've done plenty of other motorsports. Amazing that it's not very popular considering the "investment to fun ratio".

dkpain":3uag5glp said:
Question: 1
Exhaust. What should I do? I'm going to fab my own stainless one. I think 2.5 inch as I don't need 3 inch. But a good header and down pipe? What EXACTLY should I be getting.

I don't think anyone should be telling you exactly what to get, but I can make some recommendations. As you have a 185 you can use the SSAC downpipe, which is cheap as heck. Then build a midpipe that turns and exits out the side of the car by the door. No need to make it longer and heavier than it needs to be.

dkpain":3uag5glp said:
Question: 2
Clutch and flywheel. Which? Not too crazy just something that'll be good for ice. I got a nissan technician who is a real race car enthusiast is gonna help me. I want to collect all the parts I need and get them here than schedule him in so.

I would go with a standard aftermarkket clutch that still has good modulation, holding power and heat tolerance... IE a full-faced clutch disc. The stock flywheel is fine. I'm running a DXD stage 3 clutch, which is similar to a centerforce dual friction disc with organic lining on one side and sintered iron on the other. It can handle all the abuse I've thrown at it.

dkpain":3uag5glp said:
Question: 3
Blowoff valve. Which and why? Is it really required? Ran all year without. Recirculate? or no? Remember. Not a street car. Recirculating seems to me isn't necessary. A little squirt of fuel in between shifts seems like maybe some insurance. Keeping things a little rich? Not a bad idea for a race car as I don't have to care about fuel economy.

Not required unless you are increasing boost nad/or the piping volume (between compressor and TB) substantially. If anything, add a recirc valve. For venting to atmosphere the big downside which most people don't talk about is partial throttle acceleration, where the valve will vent and cause the engine to bog severely due to being very rich. You can learn to drive around it, but it's not ideal. Any dump valve will do to save your turbochargerm, but it will probably make boost response after shifts slightly faster as they do tend to surge slightly from the factory. There are literally hundreds of options..
 

dkpain

New member
thanks for the info. Should I keep the stock exhaust manifold or get a tubular? Will just the downpipe, flex and homemade mid pipe be all I need?
 

Jason88AllTrac

New member
dkpain":1py6lzxb said:
thanks for the info. Should I keep the stock exhaust manifold or get a tubular? Will just the downpipe, flex and homemade mid pipe be all I need?

The stock manifold is fine. Don't worry about upgrading it. If you spend money anywhere, on a stock trac once intake/exhaust is done I personally would upgrade the ECU first. Then ditch the old CT26 turbocharger... then go for a quality intercooler.

If you don't mind the exhaust being loud, to a certain point shorter and bigger is better.
 
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