How much effort and cost goes into making an st185 fast?

Ya, I agree with the others about the increased level of effort required to modify these cars. But it's never really bothered me, since I quite enjoy driving something different than everyone else -- something rare. Out of all the cars that showed up at the Wed night drag strip test-and-tune last night, only 3 Toyotas ... 2 ma70, 1 jza80. I was so tired of all the WRXs and Mustangs ... ugh. How cool it will be when I roll up in an st185.

But if you start going for bigger power, say 500 hp+, then I would say it's not a lot different than what the STi or Evo guys have to deal with. We all have to upgrade fuel systems, internals (possibly), engine management, intercooling, etc. Sure, those guys have so many more choices, but compared with what I saw when I got into this st185 crowd in 2000, there are real, orderable parts these days. We can buy off-the-shelf turbo kits (ATS, PE, GReddy), exhaust/intake manifolds, fuel rails, fmic kits, suspension, pnp standalone ecu (Vipec). All it takes is money and patience.

See if you can get a ride in a mildly modified st185, like was mentioned above.... full exhaust, fuel cut override, boost at about 14psi, some decent suspension upgrades. You may find that you just love it!

Effort isnt so bad, it's more of the cost. Here is my list of what it cost me to make 400awhp

Bought a used built 3sgte (6k miles) $1800
Trackforged turbo kit (Brand new) $3200
AEM ems ($1500 New)
ID 1000cc injectors ($350 used)
Fuel Rail $150
Aeromotive 340 fuel pump ($150)

My 2 cents. If you want a cheap car to modify Gt 4/Alltracs aren't what you want.

If you want a "fast" car, go drive what you can in your budget and then decide.

If you like an Alltrac St185 and want an education buy one.

When I started my car, (St165), I knew I was going to modify it and burn money, but I told myself I would learn a lot, (I have) and the money is just a vacation I never took.

Cheers

sentraman":21ivw1b2 said:

Effort isnt so bad, it's more of the cost. Here is my list of what it cost me to make 400awhp

Bought a used built 3sgte (6k miles) $1800
Trackforged turbo kit (Brand new) $3200
AEM ems ($1500 New)
ID 1000cc injectors ($350 used)
Fuel Rail $150
Aeromotive 340 fuel pump ($150)

Click to expand...

See the thing is though thats pretty damn cheap. Not as cheap as a chevy 350, but if you ask what it costs to get a 240sx, eclipse, a honda, etc RELIABLY to 400 whp its going to ring up to a similar number. Its not even fair to add the WRX's Evo's and their ilk in the comparison because you just built your 400hp alltrac for what it would cost to just buy a stock vehicle.

I'm sick of people bitching about how hard and how expensive it is to make these things fast. Its just not.

wheres the FPR, intercooler, intercooler piping, cost of tune, CAI or pod, turbo oil feed and drain, plugs, map sensor and other bits and bobs in between? $1800 for a built engine is a bloody good deal, but whats the spec on it? Cams, pulleys, new oil/water pumps, new pistons, new rods, thermostat, etc? a 'built engine' would cost a hell of a lot more than $1800 if you went shopping and outsourced the build.

I'm not saying that the cost is too low or out of the park. There are a lot of ancillaries which people don't account for on any engine. You drop $10k on engine upgrades and you should be getting some decent power, but then again, its all the extra costs to support that engine.

Then consider the brake upgrade because the factory brakes are shit, the 20+ year old suspension wobbles like jelly and bushes which are like marshmellows.

There is a lot more than pure engine power for a car to go fast.

If people are willing, we could do a retail price list and breakdown the specific costs to get an engine with a nominal goal in mind eg 300, 350, 400whp to give an overview. Lists aren't hard, but IMO its around the detail and abilities of the car owner to do work or to account for labour.

Well I didn't add most thos elittle bits, because when you buy a Trackforged turbo kit from us, it's included like: oil return, oil feed lines, water feed, water return, restrictor and a lifetime warranty on the manifold.

Generally buying an AEM or other tuning device new from the place your going to tune with, will give you a price break on the first initial tune.

Our built engine consisted of:

HKS 272 cams
HKS cam gears
Shimless bucket conversion
Manley rods
JE pistons
Balanced crank
Headgasket
TRD thermostat
Modified oil pump
ARP mains and studs
ARP rod bolts
and some other goodies

Intercooler kit can be made depending on centerfeed or sidefeed. You can run just about any intercooler core you want. Depending on your budget and what works for you.


If you want to get decent pricing on parts pm me, I am a precision dealer, also have accounts everywhere, we also build a turbo kit which is already on a car, and we build mid-pipes as well.

If I wanted an sti I would have bought an sti.
There are plenty of other cars I could get that would be faster stock and modified but then it wouldn't be an Alltrac. It's a money pit, it's old it's slower than most modern cars but its a Alltrac.

Even as a "money pit" though, I'd say they're a lot cheaper than modifying a newer car. I've got less into my GTFour than it would cost me to buy a new base model Yaris. I could maybe get an older (early-mid 2000's) STi for that but then it's rolling right into the age where lots of expensive bits start to go. Anything newer will cost even more, and anything older really isn't any different from an Alltrac as far as what it will take to get it back into good shape, though I've noticed Alltracs tend to be a bit more prone to neglected maintenance than other cars.

underscore":mfzefjei said:

Even as a "money pit" though, I'd say they're a lot cheaper than modifying a newer car. I've got less into my GTFour than it would cost me to buy a new base model Yaris. I could maybe get an older (early-mid 2000's) STi for that but then it's rolling right into the age where lots of expensive bits start to go. Anything newer will cost even more, and anything older really isn't any different from an Alltrac as far as what it will take to get it back into good shape, though I've noticed Alltracs tend to be a bit more prone to neglected maintenance than other cars.

Click to expand...

That's because they're all mighty Toyotas and they keep lasting and working even though there's a shit ton of stuff to do on the car lol

polm":yjrahrfu said:

underscore":yjrahrfu said:

Even as a "money pit" though, I'd say they're a lot cheaper than modifying a newer car. I've got less into my GTFour than it would cost me to buy a new base model Yaris. I could maybe get an older (early-mid 2000's) STi for that but then it's rolling right into the age where lots of expensive bits start to go. Anything newer will cost even more, and anything older really isn't any different from an Alltrac as far as what it will take to get it back into good shape, though I've noticed Alltracs tend to be a bit more prone to neglected maintenance than other cars.

Click to expand...

That's because they're all mighty Toyotas and they keep lasting and working even though there's a shit ton of stuff to do on the car lol

Click to expand...

Truth, Toyota's take abuse like a mofo. My 87 GTS (3SGE) made it to 468xxx kms, and I bought it at 15 with 437xxx kms. So 2 years and 31xxx kms of teenager abuse (I feel bad for that car looking back) before that engine spun a bearing. Had I known more it would've been a quick fix and I'd likely be driving that beat over 500xxx km now.

Fast is, as said, a subjective term. If you don't care for handling or safety.....buy a CT20b and a FCD, turn up boost to 17psi and drive it until it blows.

A fast car on a well build platform that handles and stops equally as well, takes a lot of time and money.

ellover009":1wheio7t said:

I would say fast is anything under 5 1/2 -6 sec 0-60 acceleration.
anything under 5 sec is really fast.

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Hmmm... My wifes Z4 supposedly does 0-60 in 4.5 seconds (never tried to verify that) and I never considered it to be "fast." :lol:

By seat-of-the-pants impression, my Camaro is way faster.

Be prepared to pour money into whichever alltrac you buy.

Z4 0-60 in 4.5???

R34 gtr's do it in about 5.0

smog7":22dxqw7l said:

Z4 0-60 in 4.5???

R34 gtr's do it in about 5.0

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I don´t remember where I read 4.5, but a quick search shows this site claiming
http://www.zeroto60times.com/BMW-Bimmer-0-60-mph-Times.html
¨2006 BMW Z4 M Roadster 0-60 mph 4.7 Quarter mile 13.2¨

and Car and Driver test results claim 4.6:
http://media.caranddriver.com/files/2006-bmw-z4-m-roadster2006-bmw-z4-m-roadster-specs.pdf

Some forum posts among Z4 enthusiasts are claiming 4.5, but those may not be credible.

smog7":208hfj56 said:

Be prepared to pour money into whichever alltrac you buy.

Z4 0-60 in 4.5???

R34 gtr's do it in about 5.0

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R35 GTR does it in 3.2, R34 GTR is about 4.5, but I'm pretty sure that's with the restrictor pill still in.

This is what i have always worried about and each time i have gone to buy an alltrac i stop and think about getting something else. I read the threads and take in the info and all i take from it is that the alltrac is a cow/money pit that must be built (internals) in order to get into that 400 hp range. I always found it hard to accept because to me the 3sgte was always one of the legendary 4cyl motors. The st205 is my favorite car and the Mark II mr2 is a car i have always wanted to own. I am in the market for a new (to me) toy and the three cars i have been looking at are the st185 the mr2 and the eclipse gsx. You guys say the car is so heavy but it weighs 200 lbs less than the gsx and they are crowned some of the fastest 4cyl around. I understand the 4g63 has more options when it comes to aftermarket support. But isnt power about un restricting the exhaust,turning up the boost, and getting the safe amount of air, fuel, spark, and timing? Are you guys saying that the 3sgte gen 2 does not get near the same amount of gains bolt on for bolt on as other turbo 4s? At the moment from what i am reading most of you would say i am better off buying the DSM because it would give me better returns on what i spend on it. I am confused about this because i have always grouped the two in similar categories.

To me there really isn't much difference between one old turbo platform and another, the further you push it from stock the more likely you are to break worn out old parts. Any old turbo car can become a money pit depending on what you do with it, so you're better off picking a platform you love so when the car gives you grief you don't get frustrated and give up.

agree-- dsm or alltrac, they are old cars... pretty much the same issues. take care of bringing car up to maintenance, and then mod. if you do it in reverse, things will break and you will spend more time not driving than driving. again, it applies to all old cars. which is why i come back to my first point: you really have to like these cars to begin with. your heart has to be there, otherwise your mind knows that there are much more rational, economical choices out there. your head is the one asking, "why put $30K into an old car when you can get a almost-new modern car for the same money and go faster and be more reliable?"

personally, i can count maybe in one hand new/modern cars that i like and would like to drive/own. the list of older cars i like is probably a few pages long.

^This


You will find more big power builds on the DSM forums simply because its a larger community. The path to those big power numbers is a bit more well defined, but in the end building a reliable high horsepower car on early 90's technology comes at a price; a price that in large part is independent of which platform you choose.

Well for me i'm not in a position where financing a car is a viable option and i am impatient when it comes to saving money especially the amount it would take to pay a new car off. So for me buying an older car is the way to go and if i ended up investing a large amount of money into a car over time so what? At least that car was something tangible, i could drive it and enjoy it mod by mod instead of staring at a number on a screen while i saved that money up. The newest car i have ever owned was a 2005 and i owned that in 2009. While i would someday like to finance a new car it would have to be something i would really like for me to pay for it and insurance every month and not mod it because of the warranty.

But that is a whole different thing i guess the point of my post was that in all the years i have lurked on this forum i have never committed to buying the alltrac. This is because from what i have read from all of the knowledgeable people on here the alltrac sounds more like a collectors car than a competitive one. So every time i go to buy a fun car and an alltrac is available it becomes more of a third car i would own someday if i had the money to instead of my weekend warrior that i could have fun with at the track both drag and auto x. Even on this thread some of the comments seem discouraging like hitting 400 crank hp is some kind of milestone. Thats why i brought up DSMs if you go to their forums they all swear like they have some of the fastest cars available even if it costs about the same to get into the 10s and 11s as i would think it would any turbo car from the 90s. So why not the 185?

TL;DR

Is the st 185 capable of the same things as a 2gb gsx for about the same if not a slightly larger amount of money when it comes to mods? If it is what is the problem? I dont consider that slow at all. Oh and reasonably i am happy with 350 to 400 whp especially when the car itself looks good.