600-800 HP 3SGTE discussion

K

knowitalls

New member
So one of my best friends has this 800+ hp Supra project that he is slowly working on. Stock internals, huge single turbonetics turbo, etc etc etc. I have my mostly stock st165. I do not want to lose to this supra. So here is whats going through my head. I want to make 800whp on race gas, and as low as 600whp on pump gas.

So far, with what I have read here on the forums, my list of upgraded parts so far are:

Gen 2 head swap for better cam selection, 3sge intake manifold, 272 cams (brand?), front mount intercooler, 3'' exhaust turbo back, t3/t4 cast manifold, turbo (size?), injectors, pistons, rods, etc etc etc...

1. What size turbo do I need to produce these numbers? Are we talking a gt30 or more along the lines of a t66? I need specifics like "If you run a GT30, you will need the exhaust A/R to be >1.05 and the compressor wheel exducer to be 86.55 mm and the inducer to be 50.00 mm 60 trim."

2. Since I have to upgrade the rods and pistons anyway, should I use a 5s block and crank? Would that bottom end spin as many rpms as the 3s can?

3. 1200cc injectors sound about right?

4. Can I get away with a piggy back or do I need to go stand alone( megasquirt is cost efffective)
 
G

Grimnor

New member
The 5s block will not fit the ST165 without significant modification. It's really not worth it. I have been doing boatloads of research on the 3sgte and what it take to make these power levels pull after pull.
Lots of people seem recommend using the first gen block for a stroker build.
5s crank - will need machining to use 3s rods - you will also use the st165 flywheel with this crank
pauter rods
cp stroker pistons
2nd gen head
block girdle
high flow oil pump
This is just a very short list.
You will certainly want to go to a serious tuner and use a stand alone ECU
If you want to hunt an 800HP supra and not blow engine after engine you are looking at a massive project. Almost nothing will be stock. I mean this literally.
To be 100% honest, the easiest way would be to turn to someone like ATS and get ready to drop something around at least 6,000 bucks.

I am not saying its impossible, it would be cool as hell. Look at what the MR2 guys do to make those power levels and you will get a better idea of what needs to be done.

**EDIT**
I have been looking around and measuring parts. If I was seriously looking to make these levels of power reliably I would end up using a dual charger system.
I have measured the supercharger, intake and water to air intercooler from the early cobalt SS. I am reasonably sure they could be modified to fit.
Clock the turbo to run to a front mount intercooler, output to the supercharger that pushes through its WtA intercooler
It would be an epic way to have a monster power band. You could run a huge turbo without worrying about unusable lag.
If I were going to hunt supras, this would be my route.
 
U

UtahSleeper

Active member
You will need a stand alone.

Also, I doubt the 3sge manifold will get you to the numbers you want.

Also, look at tjdouble07's build, somewhere here. Last I heard he was over 900. There are a few other builds, I just know his cause I have seen it.
 
underscore

underscore

Well-known member
FYI to get a high-flow oil pump get a 98+ 5SFE pump.

Grimnor":17h5ucre said:
The 5s block will not fit the ST165 without significant modification.
Click to expand...

Based on what info/reasoning?
 
G

GT4_DRED

New member
Those are extremely ambitious goals for sure, but also keep in mind that it will take at least twice as long and cost at least 3 times as much $$$ to get 800awhp from your alltrac vs. his Supra. I highly recommend reading the threads created by Alltrac101, tjdouble07, BADNEW5, and sleeper to truly get a realistic perspective of the costs, development, time, and effort it takes to get those numbers "reliably" from an Alltrac.

knowitalls":2cvexlj1 said:
I want to make 800whp on race gas, and as low as 600whp on pump gas.
Click to expand...
600whp on pump gas just isn't realistic or even possible/practical (flame suit on), without the aid of meth/water injection or unless you're referring to the "other" pump gas (E85).


knowitalls":2cvexlj1 said:
So far, with what I have read here on the forums, my list of upgraded parts so far are:
Gen 2 head swap for better cam selection, 3sge intake manifold, 272 cams (brand?), front mount intercooler, 3'' exhaust turbo back, t3/t4 cast manifold, turbo (size?), injectors, pistons, rods, etc etc etc...
Click to expand...
As mentioned earlier, the stock intake manifold wont cut it. At a minimum, you'll need a re-plenum just to meet the lower end (600whp) of your goals.


knowitalls":2cvexlj1 said:
1. What size turbo do I need to produce these numbers? Are we talking a gt30 or more along the lines of a t66? I need specifics like "If you run a GT30, you will need the exhaust A/R to be >1.05 and the compressor wheel exducer to be 86.55 mm and the inducer to be 50.00 mm 60 trim."
Click to expand...
On the low end a T3/T4 6266 (.82 a/r)should do and on the high end a T3/T4 6766 (.82 a/r) should do. Note, that you'll be running a lot of boost (easily 30+ psi and maybe even touching into the 40s).


knowitalls":2cvexlj1 said:
2. Since I have to upgrade the rods and pistons anyway, should I use a 5s block and crank? Would that bottom end spin as many rpms as the 3s can?
Click to expand...
newer 5s block (I would consider half filling it), 3s crank (oversquare setup), upgraded pistons "and pins", rods etc..


knowitalls":2cvexlj1 said:
3. 1200cc injectors sound about right?
Click to expand...
Maybe for race fuel. You'll need a lot more (~2000cc) for E85

knowitalls":2cvexlj1 said:
4. Can I get away with a piggy back or do I need to go stand alone( megasquirt is cost efffective)
Click to expand...
You'll need a full standalone.. There's nothing "cost effective" about trying to get 800whp out of a 4 cylinder. It's just costs :D

Just with what's mentioned above and the supporting mods you're above $10k (not including machine and fabrication) and we haven't mentioned stopping, handling, and the drive-train as yet. If you have the time and resources, you can do it, but even then, things will break at those power levels, which can be frustrating in itself.

I'm not trying to discourage you from your goal, just trying to help keep it in perspective. HTHs
 
A

ALLensTRAC

New member
Remove 3s. Purchase 2j swap. Mount in 165. Install Sc300/400 rear suspension and diff. Install outer stub of axles in front bearings.
Make 2j have 900hp and beat the crap out of his supra.
Seriously though there is a reason there are only 10 or so Tracs in the world creating 600whp+. As others have said look at Alltrac101, BADNEWS, or Tjdouble07. Their builds are the best when it comes to big power and are laden with custom one off parts or high dollar items that are required at that level. And these guys have been at it for years!!!!
 
Y

yota 3.0

New member
I have a 97 supra with 863rwhp and a 91 Alltrac with 600awhp and trust me when I say the amount of money you will spend trying to go Supra hunting is going to be a lot! you are better off just buying a supra.

I don't know about anyone else, but I have never been able to bang gears in my alltrac and not feel like im going to break everything. my supra on the other hand will take a beating all day!


just my opinion from owning both cars. Ditch the 3s awd setup and 1/2jz rwd convert it with a v160 or th400 trans, depends if u want 6spd or auto

let me know if you have any questions,
James
 
L

lumbercis

Moderator
Yeah, GT4_Dred has some good advice. It's sounds like you're not that familiar with 3sgte tuning so if that's the case I'd just call someone like ATS, tell them what your goals are, and let them make the decisions. But like others have mentioned, you're going to have to be prepared to drop serious cash to make this happen. I'm guessing closer to 15k once you include supporting drivetrain mods.

If you don't mind driving around in a tin can your best bet is to try get your ST165 as light as possible. Then you don't need to make as much power to equal the Supra's power to weight ratio. Then again, adding lightness can cost money too. Speed ain't cheap.

Good luck
J
 
underscore

underscore

Well-known member
On top of all that do you even know what an 800HP car is like? What do you want to use it for other than beating your buddy once?
 
A

ALLensTRAC

New member
underscore":n0pj7llh said:
On top of all that do you even know what an 800HP car is like? What do you want to use it for other than beating your buddy once?
Click to expand...
So true!!! Most people will kill themselves in an 800hp anything!!!

I'm starting to think this is a troll post though judging by the fact the OP has not chimed in and his username lol
 
U

UtahSleeper

Active member
yota 3.0":2dwdcnox said:
I have a 97 supra with 863rwhp and a 91 Alltrac with 600awhp and trust me when I say the amount of money you will spend trying to go Supra hunting is going to be a lot! you are better off just buying a supra.

I don't know about anyone else, but I have never been able to bang gears in my alltrac and not feel like im going to break everything. my supra on the other hand will take a beating all day!


just my opinion from owning both cars. Ditch the 3s awd setup and 1/2jz rwd convert it with a v160 or th400 trans, depends if u want 6spd or auto

let me know if you have any questions,
James
Click to expand...

Please dont covert an alltrac lol. They are getting rarer with each accident and rice turn to scrap lol.

But the proper question, as just asked, is what are the bigger plans for this car? Is it your DD?
 
G

GT4times2

Moderator
CSAlltrac":1asa216w said:
The ST165 tops out at 145, you're gonna need NOS.
Click to expand...


Not speaking of speed, are you? A healthy ST165 with little mods will go over 150mph, very close to 160mph. I know. :wink:


To the OP.

Your question reminds me of a story involving a friend of mine, trying to build his MR2 to outperform his friend's 911 Turbo. Moral of the story will come in later. I'm sure half way through the story, you'll figure it out. I'll try to make it brief.

He was making almost 500whp with his fully built 2.2 liter MR2 Turbo. Before making all that power the car was a high 10 sec on street slicks. The car had enough power in my opinion to give the Porsche a good run for the money, if not beat it. Oh, how he wanted to dominate the situation. He ended up spending upward of $20k to build a 3.4 liter liter motor (from a 4Runner), just to make a few ponies more. Barely 40 whp, but more torque. However, he spent money to build a motor that required more to make similar power to the 3SGTE. It cost him dearly. Did he beat the Porsche? Hmm. The race never happened after he spent all that money on his V6. (I also told him not to go that route) He ended up selling the car for other reasons.

Moral of the story, is build a car for yourself. If you want 800whp, build a car like the Supra (get an IS300, SC300, GS300 and build power with one of these, or get a Supra if you have the money). People do it for a reason. It's more attainable, and less headaches go along with going that path. Almost any engine with enough money can make power. They're all air pumps. However it'll cost you. I'm not discouraging you.

If it's power you ultimately want, get something that makes that kind of power for less. However price of admission may be higher.

Tell you this, try going 3rd or 4th Gen 3SGTE swap, with minor mods, and you'll see. Your car will be a different beast. It won't beat a Supra, but with minor mods, you can have a nice 12 second Alltrac without breaking the bank. You can always ride shotgun in your friend's Supra, and beat him in your car (canyon carving).

All the other guys are right, if you really want to go that route.

Best of Luck.


One more thing, let the Alltrac remain an Alltrac. No need converting to RWD. Just get a RWD car to begin with.
 
K

knowitalls

New member
Thanks for the replies and the reality check. After reading through some of your build threads, I see now that my goals were set a little too high. When I hear about someone making big numbers I automatically want to do it also. I don't think of the sacrifice in drive ability, the hassle of GETTING race gas, the danger of all that HP, etc. What I want is a huge smile on my face when boost hits, waving bye bye to mister 911 turbo, messing with Evo and Subi owners from a dig, smoking annoying Harleys.

So how do you put a number on that? If anyone can point me to that thread about horsepower and cost, I'd appreciate it.
Maybe 500hp?

And no, I would never convert my all trac.

Sorry, it's been a LONG day.
 
A

ALLensTRAC

New member
UtahSleeper":2bz25jan said:
yota 3.0":2bz25jan said:
I have a 97 supra with 863rwhp and a 91 Alltrac with 600awhp and trust me when I say the amount of money you will spend trying to go Supra hunting is going to be a lot! you are better off just buying a supra.

I don't know about anyone else, but I have never been able to bang gears in my alltrac and not feel like im going to break everything. my supra on the other hand will take a beating all day!


just my opinion from owning both cars. Ditch the 3s awd setup and 1/2jz rwd convert it with a v160 or th400 trans, depends if u want 6spd or auto

let me know if you have any questions,
James
Click to expand...

Please dont covert an alltrac lol. They are getting rarer with each accident and rice turn to scrap lol.

But the proper question, as just asked, is what are the bigger plans for this car? Is it your DD?
Click to expand...

With all the ST165's being parted and basically rotting in place why not build one into a purpose built drag car? :shrug:
It would be awesome with the IRS out of a Supra/SC300 with a LSD and a 2j swap. I am 100% an Alltrac fanatic but it would be fun to build one for the purpose of beating on our big brother. Once my Trac is finished I plan to build a RWD 165 to compete in FL2K. Hell no one gives the guy in Australia with the TT1UZ crap for converting his 185. It will push the boundaries of our chassis and even give it some more exposure if seen drifting or beating on a Supra at the drag strip. Just my 2 cents :twisted:
 
C

CSAlltrac

New member
GT4times2":3twfc2bn said:
CSAlltrac":3twfc2bn said:
The ST165 tops out at 145, you're gonna need NOS.
Click to expand...


Not speaking of speed, are you? A healthy ST165 with little mods will go over 150mph, very close to 160mph. I know. :wink:
Click to expand...
Ummmm, it was a quote referance from a movie. The OP is far from a serious poster so I saw a far from serious response fitting. :shrug:
 
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